[WEC] Rebellion Racing

[Deleted]

New video in the ever continuing ACO LMP1 explanatory regs videos (who is going to watch them all???) demoted entirely to Rebellion - well privateers, but essentially just Rebellion
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YxYRyIUkoOQ

Clearly putting emphasis on reliability as was to be expected.

You know Fred Courant asking questions by looking at the camera and clearly not being in the same room as the persons being interviewed is very annoying. It's almost as bad as this http://www.racesonoma.com/handler.cf...med_id=1502551
but at least there you had hot girl doing the "questions"

Originally Posted by TF110

If bop "after Le Mans" only applies to manufacturers, I bet they do get help. If so, my guess is a higher fuel flow or bigger tank? Will the latter prove difficult to accomodate to the car?

My guess would be extra liters, it's usually been the de facto closing method for privateers in recent years.

But we'll see, Beaumesnil was rather cautious with his words at Spa.

[TF110]

Nice video here http://vimeo.com/m/97529450

[GT6]

worth watching let us just hope they will find some speed in the next few dates so hoping they can run with the big boys in lmp1

[nobster]

Indeed Simon, nice video with some interesting behind the scenes shots.
Really hope they have found more speed together with reliability for next week.

[Deleted]

Good news, the old trusty warhorse Lola B12/60 has returned at Le Mans! If only as display for fans to see but nevertheless. Lola may have finally died otherwise from sportscar racing (apart from those rebraned "Mazdas" in USSC) but at least the spirit lives on

Btw since the car is there and we are one entry short of 56, I kinda wish Rebellion would have had the budget and will to enter this as third chassis for P1. But that's was too much of a fantasy

[Simmi]

A big leg-up for the R-One from the ACO.

http://sportscar365.com/lemans/leman...ormance-break/

I think a lot of people have a lot riding on the performance of this car over the next week. I just hope Rebellion are able to unlock its potential.

[Mr Pink]

That's good news, hope they have a good race!

[carbon_titanium]

so for LM the R-one will have a min. weight of 810kg, a fuel tank of 72L and a revised fuel flows value!
bop, bop everywhere!

[isynge]

Originally Posted by Simmi

A big leg-up for the R-One from the ACO.

http://sportscar365.com/lemans/leman...ormance-break/

I think a lot of people have a lot riding on the performance of this car over the next week. I just hope Rebellion are able to unlock its potential.

Given Jacques Nicolet's comments about how an Oak LMP1 is dependent on how the Rebellion runs I think it's highly sensible for the ACO to come across as being supportive of privateers.

[joeb]

Originally Posted by carbon_titanium

so for LM the R-one will have a min. weight of 810kg, a fuel tank of 72L and a revised fuel flows value!
bop, bop everywhere!

Can Rebellion even run the car that light?

These adjustments should help, but I don't think the R-One's issues were that it was overweight or needed additional fuel capacity.

[carbon_titanium]

Originally Posted by joeb

Can Rebellion even run the car that light?

These adjustments should help, but I don't think the R-One's issues were that it was overweight or needed additional fuel capacity.

I guess that ACO wants private LMP1-L closer to work LMP1-H... juding by the test it was 3.22-3.24 vs. 3.30-3.31. Very likely the pole will around 3.21, while with this new bop the r-one should run in 3.25-3-26! of course r-one won't never beat porsche, toyota and audi, but won't be 10 seconds slower.

[knighty]

heres my 2 pence worth of rebellions situation.......I cannot help but think the Toyota 3.4 Litre customer engine is now quite out-dated......I was reading this months racecar engineering magazine, and for sure TMG in cologne have recently performed a huge upgrade of this customer engine with a massive amount of dyno testing, all paid for by rebellion, but really, as we say in english, I think they are "polishing a turd".......forgetting power for a moment, 3.4 litres will generate nowhere near the amount of torque required compared to the other LMP1 engines, even without the KERS systems........Toyota have gone 3.7 litres, with the option of 4.0 Litres, really Rebellion should have paid for a re-design to 4.0 litres minimum, then worked from there......from the performances I have seen so far the car seems seriously off the pace, and is being nibbled at by the LMP2 cars, and I would not be surprised if the engine is the main culprit......you need bags of torque, not necissarily power, to accelerate the car up and along along those very long LeMans-drag-strips, not necessarily a powerful engine......its been dissected on this forum many times and acknowledged by many teams already

[Deleted]

The sheer magnitude of these adjustments make Beaumesnil's Spa comments look a bit silly.

I hope the changes get acknowledged by the commentators and not turned into some positive PR spin ("look how much they've managed to improve sice Spa / test day!")

Btw that old Lola is gonna be displayed at some local department store

[J Jay]

Originally Posted by knighty

Really Rebellion should have paid for a re-design to 4.0 litres minimum, then worked from there

Would they have enough money for this and the construction of the R-One? If it was a choice between the two, I think Rebellion have been sensible about prioritising the car over the engine, as we've just seen it's relatively easy to get a "leg up" on the engine side.

Originally Posted by Chiana

The sheer magnitude of these adjustments make Beaumesnil's Spa comments look a bit silly.

The first thing that came to my mind too. Everybody involved needs LMP1-L to work, but of course nobody wants to shout from the rooftops about such large adjustments as these.

[GT6]

Well lets hope it helps them get closer to the works cars, i know it is a big adjustment but it would be great if they were close enough to still be on the same lap as the sun sets

[carbon_titanium]

surely this bop break is the cheapest way for ACO to encourage oak and some other like dome to come back in lmp1.

[JoestForEver]

The weight break will help them with 2 secs IMO. Just need to see how the 2 percent come into the game.

[Bandicoot17]

Apparently the #13 spent a while at Scrutineering and was only released when a Toyota man turned up with some files.

[joeb]

Originally Posted by Bandicoot17

Apparently the #13 spent a while at Scrutineering and was only released when a Toyota man turned up with some files.

Do you mean the kind of file used to shave metal, of the kind with information? Both could be humorous.

[Articus]

[TF110]

Originally Posted by Chiana

The sheer magnitude of these adjustments make Beaumesnil's Spa comments look a bit silly.

I hope the changes get acknowledged by the commentators and not turned into some positive PR spin ("look how much they've managed to improve sice Spa / test day!")

Btw that old Lola is gonna be displayed at some local department store

I dont understand comments like this. No one wants private teams to fall by the wayside. But thats going to happen if things stayed as is. Rebellion arent going to gloat about being on pace with the factories (if they are on pace), they even noted the eot changes on twitter.

People were calling for a bigger gap in weight between hybrid factory cars and non-hybrid from the beginning. Now you see this, people shouldnt be up in arms over it. Toyota says their hybrid system is worth over 5 seconds at Le Mans! So without it, the pace would be 3:28/3:29. They also said 10kg costs .5 second. So 40kg should potentially be 2 seconds. So the Rebellion could go from 3:31/3:32 to 3:29/3:30 on the weight drop. Thats not enough. So theres also the benefit of fuel usage. They dont have hybrid power to rely on for acceleration or economy. So the increased fuel tank should help offset that disadvantage. Glad that all the teams agreed on these changes. They recognize Rebellion's importance.

[knighty]

Originally Posted by J Jay

Would they have enough money for this and the construction of the R-One? If it was a choice between the two, I think Rebellion have been sensible about prioritising the car over the engine, as we've just seen it's relatively easy to get a "leg up" on the engine side.
.

I can understand your logic, but if a "leg-up" equates to only 2 seconds per lap, they are still going to be hounded all the way by the LMP2 runners and the works LMP1 teams will just steam off into the sun-set.......I have reason to believe that Rebellion have a very significant budget and are not doing this on a shoe-string, despite what they say publicly, have you seen the cost of a typical rebellion watch? a crap one is $10K!....an average one $50 - 100K......a real funky one £930K!!!!!.......all they would need to do is sell about 10 average watches and that would pay for the engine upgrade no problem!.......from what I hear through the grapevine Rebellion just dont have the depth of knowledge to understand the basic powertrain requirements.........Even Judd and Zytek have pushed 4.4 Litre 2014 LMP1 V8's for the past 6 months (links below), you would have thought that rebellion would have taken the hint back then, but they didnt......dont get me wrong, I think they are a great team and deserve credit for going the LMP1 route as a privateer, especially in the face of such competitors, so overall good luck to them, but they will be on the back foot with the old 3.4 engine due to a significant torque deficit, which will also not help their fuel economy due to its very high revving nature, going the 4.0L+ route would have significantly helped both torque and fuel economy.

Personally I would not be surprised to see one of the new Rebellion cars running one of the Zytek or Judd 4.4 litre units in the not too distant future after LeMans, as they are in for a rude awakening on the engine front, the 3.4L unit is the wrong tool for the job in 2014.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report...?source=latest

http://www.engdev.com/engines/db-4-4-l-lmp1-v8/

[carbon_titanium]

Originally Posted by TF110

Glad that all the teams agreed on these changes. They recognize Rebellion's importance.

I think that other teams just don't care... surely audi, porsche and toyota are not scared by the r-one "bopped improved" performances and lmp2 teams would be however slower. From years the lmp1 private field is a sort of limbo, a sub-class between work lmp1 and lmp2. Anyway I hope for rebellion that they can do a great le mans race, possibly finishing the race 10 or less laps behind the winner! they deserve it and this great result may encourage teams and chassis designers to still believe in lmp1.

[Mike E]

Originally Posted by knighty

Personally I would not be surprised to see one of the new Rebellion cars running one of the Zytek or Judd 4.4 litre units in the not too distant future after LeMans, as they are in for a rude awakening on the engine front, the 3.4L unit is the wrong tool for the job in 2014.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report...?source=latest

http://www.engdev.com/engines/db-4-4-l-lmp1-v8/

How much of a compromise do you think it would be to change engines? Presumably the chassis has been designed with the Toyota motor in mind.

[J Jay]

Originally Posted by knighty

Personally I would not be surprised to see one of the new Rebellion cars running one of the Zytek or Judd 4.4 litre units in the not too distant future after LeMans, as they are in for a rude awakening on the engine front, the 3.4L unit is the wrong tool for the job in 2014.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report...?source=latest

http://www.engdev.com/engines/db-4-4-l-lmp1-v8/

Yeah I've seen those prices, never bothered to look up how much of the considerable profit goes to the team though. Or how many of what type of watch they sell, can't say I've ever seen someone wearing a Rebellion watch down my high street...

I still find it odd that a team as clued up as Rebellion have underestimated the powertrain requirements this much, which is why I'm hoping they're being conservative rather than ill-informed. I do agree that they need a better (bigger) engine sharpish; even if it is helping to bring more privateers to LMP1 this sort of BoP cannot be more than a temporary measure. I suppose we will find answers when they switch engines - if the R-One has been designed solely for the Toyota 3.4 there will be many problems fitting a larger engine.