IMSA Should we be worried about the future of GTD?

[Speed-King]

Originally Posted by joeb

That is good to hear that the lower classes are still costing less. I was wondering how GS costs compared to GT4.

Well, the jury really is still out on that question. Clay says one thing, but Mike's tweet (GT4 in PWC being more expensive than GT3 four years ago) suggests something else.

[joeb]

Originally Posted by Speed-King

Well, the jury really is still out on that question. Clay says one thing, but Mike's tweet (GT4 in PWC being more expensive than GT3 four years ago) suggests something else.

#of weekends and travel might play into the pwc vs imsa side of it as well for the gt4's

[Speed-King]

Originally Posted by joeb

#of weekends and travel might play into the pwc vs imsa side of it as well for the gt4's

Naw, as I understand it, the GT3 vs GT4 numbers were all on the PWC side, with PWC GT3 also having caught up to Rolex GT from five years ago despite the much lower running time.

Gesendet von meinem SM-A320FL mit Tapatalk

[broadrun96]

Originally Posted by Speed-King

Well, the jury really is still out on that question. Clay says one thing, but Mike's tweet (GT4 in PWC being more expensive than GT3 four years ago) suggests something else.

So you're comparing two different series, two different styles of car building, two different series management and their interference, and different running times. I'm thinking there really is nothing to compare between Mike's thoughts and James's. And it's not like James is new to the series, they've run BMWs a while now so I think he knows what it costs to run both his old and new programs.

[NaBUru38]

Last year, the IMSA Weathertech race at Road America had 35 cars.
This year, the 24H Daytona has 50 entries, and the Conti race has 43 entries..

Those grids are healthy. I don't see any reason why IMSA would change it.

If there were 22 entries, then IMSA would probably add a 911 Cup class, or a tubeframe GT class. But that's not the case.

[jjvincent]

Originally Posted by Speed-King

Well, the jury really is still out on that question. Clay says one thing, but Mike's tweet (GT4 in PWC being more expensive than GT3 four years ago) suggests something else.

James and Karl are vendors, Mike is a consumer. So, James and Karl have a product to sell and thus, they need to make it sound as good as can be. Mike purchases that product and he is just stating what he has bought and how much it costs over the years. As for the teams that are rental operations (i.e. C360 and BW) they will never release prices or ever tell you how much of an increase it is from year to year or from 5 years ago. As for Mike he knows because all he has to do is look at his bank statement.

Think of it this way. Imagine if Outback ran a series of ads telling you that they have an all new menu and items, it sounds like a trip to Outback is in order. If Outback advertised that they have all new menu and items plus we increased the cost of everything on the menu by 20%, I have a feeling that you might decide that you'll go to Longhorn instead.

As for James, he has a tractor trailer that holds two cars. One is a GS and the other is ST. The ST car has a freshness date on it of October 2018. After that, it's no good. Since BMW does not have a TCR car, the only other thing that can fill that void in the trailer is a 2nd GT4 BMW. This is because he sure can't run an Audi in TCR and think that will go perfectly well with Bimmerworld plastered down the side of it. He has all this year to talk up that GT4 car so he can rent it out.

[TF110]

GT3 is as popular as ever and you have new manufacturers entering the class. It's sustainable as long as there's buyers for it. They could go a long way and make a GT convergence for GT3 and GTE and that would make a lot of cars/customers able to compete in Le Mans style racing. That imo has to be the way forward.

[AJA]

Here is a random fact on just the tire budget of GS cars:
If I remember correctly in 2014, a set of tires for a GS car was about $1400-1500. Now it looks like its about $2000-2100. In that year we ran 10 race(we bailed after VIR) and 2 test events, we had used 75 sets between 2 cars. Stevenson as another example had used 65 sets for EACH car at the same point. I would guess tire use is up as well as the old tires lasted pretty damn long.

For PWC GTS, in 2015 we used 3 sets of tires at $2500 a set each weekend per car. Last year at St. pete we used 3 sets of new tires. This year, they are allowing you use up to 4 new sets, and 1 used set from previous weekend, per weekend. In my mind that is forcing you into an extra new set, as we would try to use 2 old sets to run start off a weekend. Now you don't need to use all 4 sets but if you want to be competitive, you have to. Most slicks from my experience start to loose speed the moment you leave the truck.

John V and myself were in it when entries were in the 80's, 90's and even over 100 cars. Even when the economy was way down. Now is the racing better with fewer cars? There are a lot less cautions for sure, however I think the level of competition has gone down. I'm hopeful it will rise up again to what it was, 31 GS cars looks good, hopefully it stays in the hi-20's for the season.

[Speed-King]

Originally Posted by TF110

GT3 is as popular as ever

Yeah, no.

There were a lot more GT3 series ten years ago and even those that survived have often much smaller grids than some time back.


The following series all had 20+ GT3 cars at some point over the last ten years:

Belcar --> dead
FFSA GT --> dead, reborn with GT4
Spanish GT --> dead
British GT --> down to a dozen or so GT3s
PWC --> down to the high teens from almost 30
IMSA --> only a dozen or so full time GT3s

Granted, there are series such as Blancpain, ADAC GT or International GT Open which are doing fine (again), but overall it can't be denied that GT3 has taken a hit over the last few years.

[jjvincent]

Remember the GT2 and it's radical aero along with costs. At least GT3 is much better:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tyBkAh7-JAg

[WolfsburgRS]

Originally Posted by AJA

Here is a random fact on just the tire budget of GS cars:
If I remember correctly in 2014, a set of tires for a GS car was about $1400-1500. Now it looks like its about $2000-2100. In that year we ran 10 race(we bailed after VIR) and 2 test events, we had used 75 sets between 2 cars. Stevenson as another example had used 65 sets for EACH car at the same point. I would guess tire use is up as well as the old tires lasted pretty damn long.

For PWC GTS, in 2015 we used 3 sets of tires at $2500 a set each weekend per car. Last year at St. pete we used 3 sets of new tires. This year, they are allowing you use up to 4 new sets, and 1 used set from previous weekend, per weekend. In my mind that is forcing you into an extra new set, as we would try to use 2 old sets to run start off a weekend. Now you don't need to use all 4 sets but if you want to be competitive, you have to. Most slicks from my experience start to loose speed the moment you leave the truck....

Even though I always feel like i'm relatively plugged in on the numbers just from having friends on teams over the years, when you spell out what it really takes to run in a series it's still surprising. The spend is just massive.

[jjvincent]

Just to give you an idea. We spent $250K in 1990 to win the GS championship. In 2010 the team spent $450K. In 2018, it'll run you around $900K. That $250K in 1990 adjusted for inflation was $417K and for today, $468K. So, let's just see:

1990 = $250K
2010 = $450K ($417K) +7.9% over inflation
2018 = $900K ($468K) +92.3% over inflation

Does anyone see a trend?

[joeb]

Originally Posted by jjvincent

Just to give you an idea. We spent $250K in 1990 to win the GS championship. In 2010 the team spent $450K. In 2018, it'll run you around $900K. That $250K in 1990 adjusted for inflation was $417K and for today, $468K. So, let's just see:

1990 = $250K
2010 = $450K ($417K) +7.9% over inflation
2018 = $900K ($468K) +92.3% over inflation

Does anyone see a trend?

Do your numbers include the purchase of a car? Or just running costs

[YZFrider]

Surely the value of the dollar has changed betweeen 1990 and 2010. Do those figures take into account inflation? (ie 250K in 1990 = ? in 2010) Also I'd like to know the ratio of the spending compared to the income as a percentage between those years...if possible

[FormulaFox]

Originally Posted by jjvincent

Just to give you an idea. We spent $250K in 1990 to win the GS championship. In 2010 the team spent $450K. In 2018, it'll run you around $900K. That $250K in 1990 adjusted for inflation was $417K and for today, $468K. So, let's just see:

1990 = $250K
2010 = $450K ($417K) +7.9% over inflation
2018 = $900K ($468K) +92.3% over inflation

Does anyone see a trend?

1990, huh? Okay then...

Would you care to elaborate on exactly which series you mean regarding 1990 since, you know, the series that CTSCC spawned from didn't exist until 1997. I'd like to have more clear reference points regarding the vehicles in use. (I'm guessing you're referring to the old Firehawk series -it is the only series I recall having a class titled GS at the time- but I'd rather make sure since I wasn't following such racing at the time and accurate information on lower classes in the early 90s is hard to come by these days)

[FormulaFox]

On a relevant note, I was recently shown some information from a private test of a McLaren 570S GT4. Owners squeezed more horsepower(they claim 25, but I ain't buying - you'll understand why soon) out of the engine and put super soft("softer than is legal in any championship") tires on it, and it lapped only 4 seconds slower than the 650S GT3 in FIA/SRO spec on the track they were on.

So...Yeah, I'm really thinking now that GT4 just might be far better suited for GTD than GS. That they can squeeze out that kind of performance at all says that there's a lot of room to work with, even if their claimed alterations are heavily understated.

[carbsmith]

There's a pretty direct lineage between IMSA Champion Spark Plug Challenge/Firehawk Championship/Speedvision Cup and Motorola Cup/KONI/Continental Challenge. Ultimately it's a relationship much like IMSA GT and WTSCC now.

[FormulaFox]

Originally Posted by carbsmith

There's a pretty direct lineage between IMSA Champion Spark Plug Challenge/Firehawk Championship/Speedvision Cup and Motorola Cup/KONI/Continental Challenge. Ultimately it's a relationship much like IMSA GT and WTSCC now.

That's kinda the whole basis for the little opener joke. And to a lesser extent why I wanted clarification; The explicit series that directly evolved into CTSCC may not have existed in 1990, but several similar series that preceded it did(IIRC, the World Challenge shifted to a very similar structure that year just to name another), but since jjvincent was referring to a CLASS not a series I wanted to be sure of which one. More information only helps makes the matter clearer, after all.

[hondafan37]

Marquardt: GT3 “Not Sustainable” with Factory Backed Teams

http://sportscar365.com/imsa/iwsc/ma...acked-entries/

[Akrapovic]

Originally Posted by hondafan37

Marquardt: GT3 “Not Sustainable” with Factory Backed Teams

http://sportscar365.com/imsa/iwsc/ma...acked-entries/

This is especially a problem for cars that are produced in small numbers. Realistically, the Bentley, NSX, Lexus and maybe McLaren, are not going to be profit making exercises. Doesn't actually matter how well Audi or Ferrari do, because the car is a financial success anyway. But the small numbers manufacturers might be another problem.

[Coach Ep]

....

***Porsche Consulting and Porsche Digital have come on-board to serve as primary sponsors for the No. 58 Wright Motorsports Porsche 911 GT3 R this year. Both companies are wholly-owned subsidiaries of Porsche AG.

from http://sportscar365.com/imsa/iwsc/da...ay-notebook-8/

[WolfsburgRS]

To be fair, Audi has done that for years. Both Magnus and Stevenson had Audi branded divisions on their R8s. Audi Tire Centers or Audi Genuine Parts.

[chernaudi]

Even earlier than that, albeit in BES/Spa 24. One car at least was sponsored by Audi Sport Performance Cars at Spa as early as 2012.

And not to mention that Champion was sponsored by S Line/quattro GmbH (now Audi Sport Performance Cars) along aside ADT in '05 in the ALMS.

[broadrun96]

Originally Posted by chernaudi

Even earlier than that, albeit in BES/Spa 24. One car at least was sponsored by Audi Sport Performance Cars at Spa as early as 2012.

And not to mention that Champion was sponsored by S Line/quattro GmbH (now Audi Sport Performance Cars) along aside ADT in '05 in the ALMS.

It's more important regarding the status of 'factory backing' and whether Porsche or Audi sponsorship on the car would constitute factory backing.

To me both of those are in the grey area but leaning toward factory backing in some capacity. It's manufacturer money, it may not be the factory racing team but the team has not brought on a paying driver to race but rather a car associated sponsor. However, in the case of Magnus I don't think they have used that money to hire another 'sneaky Silver' but rather used it to sponsor Potter's fun. And it seems Wright are on that path as well. And to me that's staying on the spirit of the regs side.

The Acura was whole-heartedly a factory livery and they did not pretend to hide it, but this year it shows how they could make last year work only with that factory cash. Lexus I think uses Levinson audio extensively so I think that was a factory assisted deal, but I may be wrong. But both of those teams did not bring in a Potter to drive but rather very good and on the rise (or decline, was Pruett silver for 2017?) to Silver to meet the regs. I would venture DHH is a quick Silver, but then so is Nielson but both of them should still be Silvers. They just practice their craft and have honed their skills, I don't think we should fault them for being fast and kind of what the ACO/IMSA want to show off as their Am class drivers. And I think the Acura and Lexus teams had far greater engineering support than the Magnus and Wright receive this season.

But then as I've been told on here before, I might be completely wrong

[chernaudi]

There is context in what I posted in that Champion got sponsorship backing from Audi (S Line/quattro GmbH) but were still considered a privateer team by IMSA back then (they won the IMSA Cup in 2005, which is an award for private teams). Their Infineon backing in '04 was probably also from association with Audi Sport.

WRT is definitely a grey area in that provisionally they're a customer team, but get tons of factory support from Audi Sport in the form of drivers and corporate sponsorship, especially for their all pro efforts.

AJR was considered a private team by IMSA until mid '03 due to them being the preferred/favored Porsche team at the time. Flying Lizard was close to being the same but was still considered a private team when they got favored backing from Porsche Motorsport in the ALMS.

Whatever or however we may precieve it, it seems to be up to the sanctioning body to determine who or what is a factory effort or not.

Another case in point was the Acura teams in the ALMS. They were considered privateer teams by IMSA, but Penske with Porsche was considered to be a factory team.

There's no denying that most of the DPI teams in the current IMSA prototype class are to some extent factory backed. Even if ESM has officially minimal factory support from Nissan, Nissan still puts their sponsorship and brand name on the car.

Where I draw the line is that if sponsorship stays at that and said team gets no more direct factory support than another team with the same make/model of car, then they're probably a privateer team. If it goes beyond that, then it's a factor team. Your mileage may vary, as may your opinion.