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26 Jan 2017, 14:08 (Ref:3705230) | #26 | |
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From my observations there is a lot more 'wrong' with engines than capacity.
personal experience also backs up the fact that modernised engines produce much better torque @ power on capacity than over bored more traditional engines. |
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26 Jan 2017, 16:52 (Ref:3705269) | #27 | ||
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De Cadenet told me that when he was driving an original C-type at Monaco he was overtaken by the race winning car as he was coming out of a corner and it just disappeared off into the distance down the straight.
As he said, that has nothing to do with a driver's skill and just shows that the other car had far more power than original. Assuming the race winning car was the right capacity (and there is no reason to doubt that) it shows that modern pistons, camshafts and many other components can make a huge difference, as do the fuel and oil. The problem is how can you control such components, at least capacity is relatively simple to measure. It would be easier if people were more realistic about what they are 'winning', why would anyone sensible spend quarter of a million on a Jag engine when all they 'win' is a worthless trophy and see their name on a results sheet. Didn't they used to have historic races in the States where the trophies weren't necessarily given for track position? Maybe that wasn't such a daft idea... |
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"The problem with internet quotes is that you can't always depend on their accuracy" - Abraham Lincoln, 1864 |
26 Jan 2017, 17:20 (Ref:3705274) | #28 | ||
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I always supposed it was to add provenance and track record to the car thus 'enhancing its value'.
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a salary slave no more... |
26 Jan 2017, 17:22 (Ref:3705275) | #29 | ||
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One of the monthlies has an article about the restoration of a Jag (not D) that raced at LM. Despite losing the 'works' D Type head over the years, when the engine was rebuilt it produced far more horse power than in period. That is what we can do nowadays.....
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Logic will get you from A to B. Imagination will take you everywhere. (Einstein) |
26 Jan 2017, 17:36 (Ref:3705279) | #30 | |||
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Quote:
Provenance should be about something's history. Admittedly at some point in the future current events will be part of history but the events aren't of historic significance. Showing that a car works should add something to the value but given the amounts being spent just on running some cars these days shouldn't be worth so much. And as many people have discovered buying a race winning car does not guarantee success, chances are the driver had something to do with the result... But there is more chance of buying success in historics than contemporary cars, which takes us back to the why bother... |
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"The problem with internet quotes is that you can't always depend on their accuracy" - Abraham Lincoln, 1864 |
26 Jan 2017, 19:37 (Ref:3705307) | #31 | ||
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Because they're driven by successful men to whom winning is everything. They've won in life to be on big incomes, losing on the track doesn't enter their minds. They'll do what it takes.
And thank goodness for that. It gives those of us working in the industry an income, and the chance for spectators to enjoy some right royal racing and see some special cars. Sent from my SM-G900F using Tapatalk |
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Midgetman - known as Max Tyler to the world. MaxAttaq! |
27 Jan 2017, 08:50 (Ref:3705496) | #32 | |
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Whilst agreeing in part with MM, the point must be made that there are rules, and if people are successful within those rules then that is to be applauded, if the need to win takes cars outside those parameters then really what is the point? Ten years ago (or so..) I suggested on here that a line was drawn, sadly the development arms race has continued, probably even the rate of development has increased in some areas.
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27 Jan 2017, 11:19 (Ref:3705531) | #33 | ||
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A few years ago, I believe that CSCC were encouraged by competitors to introduce a proper Appendix K series because enough people wanted to race on a proper level playing field and to have proper eligibility checks.
An eligibility Scrutineer was employed and checks were made. Some cars were excluded and low and behold entries dwindled because the discrepancies found were, "not me sir, it has no performance impact, sir, I'm not a cheat, sir, it's everyone else....." |
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Born in the Midlands, made in the Royal Navy |
27 Jan 2017, 13:06 (Ref:3705547) | #34 | ||
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Simon can I make clear that I was answering the question 'why do people cheat for a plastic trophy?' as opposed to condoning cheating. I then got a bit carried away!
I actually think that building cars outside the rules is cheating yourself most of all. Hollow victories are no victories to my mind. In karting we have weighing and eligibility scrutineering after every heat and final for the top few plus others at random. I admit it's a lot easier on a kart, but equally we have a lot quicker turnaround. At the end of rhe day we have often had full engine strip downs as well - again a lot easier on a single cylinder 2-Stroke I admit! However what it does mean is that everyone is anal about minimum weights, restrictor sizes, correct exhaust gaskets etc. In the whole of my car racing "career" I was only subjected to a weighbridge twice. Tighten up on the basics plus a few random major strip downs and the problem will ease. You don't have to do it there, MSA scrutineers all have seals. I think TV detector vans work that way! Sent from my SM-G900F using Tapatalk |
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Midgetman - known as Max Tyler to the world. MaxAttaq! |
27 Jan 2017, 22:02 (Ref:3705667) | #35 | |||
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Quote:
I was testing my car at Brands to get to the bottom of a misfire before a Spa meeting and the only day I could there was a track day, I overtook a Scooby going into clearways and much to the drivers amazement pulled away along the top straight. The said driver came into the garage and said how can that "thing" beat me out of a corner as I have 440HP ! my mechanic said "well we have 500" so he walked away satisfied. |
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Balls of steel (knob of butter) They're Asking For Larkins. ( Proper beer) not you're Eurofizz crap. Hace más calor en España. Me han conocido a hablar un montón cojones! Send any cheques and cash to PO box 1 Lagos Nigeria Africa ! |
28 Jan 2017, 09:28 (Ref:3705745) | #36 | ||
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Am I missing something here?? Doesn't the MSA have clear guidance on the protesting of competitors? At the end of the day this is club racing. I hear the same bleating on year after year…If a competitor feels that someone is cheating then they can protest said competitor….I guess that most people are not bothered enough to want to put up or shut up!
N. |
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29 Jan 2017, 09:04 (Ref:3706790) | #37 | ||
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Often it's the protestor not the protested against that takes the flak. "Don't want to rock the boat old boy. Not the done thing. Let sleeping dogs lie, eh?"
Or maybe everyone's got a skeleton they don't want seen. Sent from my SM-G900F using Tapatalk |
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Midgetman - known as Max Tyler to the world. MaxAttaq! |
29 Jan 2017, 11:23 (Ref:3706844) | #38 | ||
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I think mostly its a case of cant be bothered to carry it anywhere further than just moaning about so and so being that much faster.
That in itself is a great shame for Historics.If you know there is something not quite right,speak to the right person or scrutineer,you would be surprised at how many will actually listen. |
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Living the dream,Chief instruktor and racing on the worlds best circuits-The Nordschleife and Spa.Getting to drive the worlds best cars-someone has to do it, so glad its me. |
29 Jan 2017, 22:08 (Ref:3707613) | #39 | ||
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In my experience at a much lower level of competing it was the crap guys that used to cheat and the very top guys at big races.
Not many inbetween You can never get rid of it, and I ahve read elswhere some truly astonishing cheats that ahve taken place in motorsport. it would make an awesome book as all I can say. But sadly, the legal side would be a nightmare. I would bet there are countless series that have been totally dominated by illegal cars of some kind |
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30 Jan 2017, 05:26 (Ref:3707698) | #40 | ||
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Think youll find someone already wrote a book on cheating.Mainly in the US,roll cages that doubled as extra fuel tanks,cars the were scaled down in size.Very long lists.But youre right-someone should do one on Historics.Take a few years though.
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Living the dream,Chief instruktor and racing on the worlds best circuits-The Nordschleife and Spa.Getting to drive the worlds best cars-someone has to do it, so glad its me. |
30 Jan 2017, 15:40 (Ref:3707807) | #41 | ||
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"The problem with internet quotes is that you can't always depend on their accuracy" - Abraham Lincoln, 1864 |
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