Ludo Lacroix...GONE!!

[Chappelli]

That is the point.... his job is 2 of 3 of the things you note.

That aside, you're rewriting history. At both Williams and McLaren he took the big job at teams that were well funded, had come 2nd in the Championship the year prior and had very very good engines..... In both cases the teams declined significantly during his tenure and in both cases his tenure was relatively short...

[Razor]

With Phil Keed and Ludo at Johnson-Penske, they've got two of the greatest engineers in the field IMO. They'll be hard to beat once they're up to speed.

[TSR]

Originally Posted by Razor

With Phil Keed and Ludo at Johnson-Penske, they've got two of the greatest engineers in the field IMO. They'll be hard to beat once they're up to speed.

And what will Adam De Borie do now, me I would make Ludo the Dutto of DJR Penske.

[Ospi]

I imagine he'll be there in a development/TC type position and not a race engineering one.

[billy bleach]

Originally Posted by GTRMagic

The difference in Mr Michael's role in F1 and his mooted role at RBHRT is that every single week, 888 is in a position technically, financially & operationally to be in the top 3 every session, every, qualifying, every race. The teams Mr Michael worked for in F1 were never that..

It might be argued they were until he arrived!

[GTRMagic]

Article Here

Originally Posted by Adelaide Advertiser, Nov 5 2016 "What's The Buzz", by James Phelps

SUPERCAR TEAMS LIVING IN FEAR

SEVERAL Supercars team owners are fearing a recent spate of engineer signings could start a trend that will send them broke.

DJR/Team Penske last week spent a rumoured $1m to lure Ludo Lacroix from Red Bull Racing Australia (RBRA) while RBRA forked out a similar amount for his replacement.

There are concerns that other engineers will now demand huge pay rises that will see them be paid more than the drivers.

I recall something similar back in the early 2000's with key people moving around for some big salary numbers... a million bucks to get a toy on the grid that will win by sheer might of perspiration... cheap really...

[ForumNick]

What's the point of posting a link to a pay-wall?

[GTRMagic]

Originally Posted by ForumNick

What's the point of posting a link to a pay-wall?

The text in the quote is from the article, which if you search the name of the article on google is not behind a paywall..

[Umai Naa]

I think GTR's excerpt covers it.

The rest is more typical Phelpstar baseless ramblings.

[fomoco]

I wonder if they should have a draft and free agent system.

Just think, I want to nominate for the draft,
trade of,
we want some go fast bits in return, or pit bay closer to pit exit.

Free Agent
I have been here for ten years,
I nominate Hungarian Trotting Duck racing team I would like to go to

this would stop all this gardening leave

[Umai Naa]

Gardening leave is not a problem, as such.

What the teams are spending on these kind of personnel in future seasons, could well be though.

[djr81]

Originally Posted by Umai Naa

Gardening leave is not a problem, as such.

What the teams are spending on these kind of personnel in future seasons, could well be though.

Why is that? What is it about engineers that means they deserve to be lowly paid? If the drivers can get paid huge salaries why shouldnt the bloke with the brains get paid properly as well?

[peckstar]

Originally Posted by djr81

Why is that? What is it about engineers that means they deserve to be lowly paid? If the drivers can get paid huge salaries why shouldnt the bloke with the brains get paid properly as well?

would that not be because it creates a costly battle that sses the cost of running the series explode without any real benefit to the racing. Creating a bigger gap between the richer and poorer teams.

That being said, Was ludo being badly paid at triple 8. probably not!

[GTRMagic]

Originally Posted by djr81

Why is that? What is it about engineers that means they deserve to be lowly paid? If the drivers can get paid huge salaries why shouldnt the bloke with the brains get paid properly as well?

Anyone can get paid whatever the market is willing to pay..

Having designed & supervised the build of at least 45 Supercar chassis over the years, delivering umpteen race & championship wins for his employer & for customer teams, Mr Lacroix seems uniquely placed to command pretty much whatever salary he wants

[Jack65]

As with anything, the law of supply and demand will sought values out. But it does seem that two teams have a lot more financial resources than the others and longer term this concentration of talent be it driver, engineering or whatever, will lead to a less competitive series.

[djr81]

Originally Posted by peckstar

would that not be because it creates a costly battle that sses the cost of running the series explode without any real benefit to the racing. Creating a bigger gap between the richer and poorer teams.

That being said, Was ludo being badly paid at triple 8. probably not!

So its ok to build a new chassis every 5 minutes or chuck endless tyres at cars or be fine with drivers firing each other off into the wilderness with the attendent repair bills but the line being crossed is paying an engineer properly?

Originally Posted by Jack65

As with anything, the law of supply and demand will sought values out. But it does seem that two teams have a lot more financial resources than the others and longer term this concentration of talent be it driver, engineering or whatever, will lead to a less competitive series.

There are always haves and have nots. For example next year Walkinshaw will have not Holden funding worth a damn after many years of being one of the best funded teams going around. Penske will have some coin to spend after years of Dick Johnson scraping together whatever he could find to go racing and generally lurching from crisis to crisis. 888 has had the most coin for the last ten years or so and it shows. What's good for Roland and whats good for the series arent the same thing. Yes a more even playing field is better for the series but now that 888 are the Holden factory team someone needs to step up and compete with them. PRA, GRM, BJR, HRT, Erebus or anyone else other than Penske dnnt appear to be capable of it.

[peckstar]

Originally Posted by djr81

So its ok tohere are always haves and have nots. For example next year Walkinshaw will have not Holden funding worth a damn after many years of being one of the best fund build a new chassis every 5 minutes or chuck endless tyres at cars or be fine with drivers firing each other off into the wilderness with the attendent repair bills but the line being crossed is paying an engineer properly?

No one has mentioned not paying an engineer properly. its a price war in non driver costs we are talking about

No one builds a new chassis every 5 minutes, About once a year is more likely
We have tyre limits, thus no endless tyres
Accidents are part of racing and cant be helped

[djr81]

Originally Posted by peckstar

No one has mentioned not paying an engineer properly. its a price war in non driver costs we are talking about

No one builds a new chassis every 5 minutes, About once a year is more likely
We have tyre limits, thus no endless tyres
Accidents are part of racing and cant be helped

A non driver price war is according to what has been posted above going to ruin the sport. With the (sole?) example used being engineers salaries. Maybe they could just give them a base salary with an incentive for every time they appear on the race telecast. Given that appears to be most of them these days their pay would probably go up.

One of the few things left creating interest in the series is the engineering improvements being introduced. Judging from last weekend the 28 tyres per car didnt contribute much to the show, the shiney chassis being run by all and sundry (< 12 months old) likewise and the number of cars being punted off didnt help much. Were it not for Foxtel dumbing down the commentary (Not half as bad in this respect to the way channel 7 used to be) there may be more interest.

For what its worth accidents are largely avoidable. The aggregate left on the corner apex with everyone jumping the kerbs and subsequently spraying it all over the track helped how many cars into the wall at Puke? That is before you get to the drivers. They cant even restrain themselves when it comes to their team mates, never mind another outfits cars.

[Axeman444]

Originally Posted by djr81

...why shouldnt the bloke with the brains get paid properly as well?

Originally Posted by peckstar

would that not be because it creates a costly battle that sses the cost of running the series explode without any real benefit to the racing...

Originally Posted by djr81

... the line being crossed is paying an engineer properly?

Originally Posted by peckstar

No one has mentioned not paying an engineer properly. its a price war in non driver costs we are talking about

I'm not understanding where the line is on what we are or are not talking about

[Jack65]

Think the point being made is it in the best interests of the sport to be having $1 million salaries for behind the scenes the staff? Nothing against the individuals involved, it they can get that sought of money then good luck to them. But it's not going to bring any more dollars in, so if there is a large increase in staff costs, other things might have to be cut like on track time.

[Mixer]

Originally Posted by Jack65

Think the point being made is it in the best interests of the sport to be having $1 million salaries for behind the scenes the staff? Nothing against the individuals involved, it they can get that sought of money then good luck to them. But it's not going to bring any more dollars in, so if there is a large increase in staff costs, other things might have to be cut like on track time.

One major point for me is that Ludo designed a lot of the parts that 888 then on-sold to other teams, he wasn't just a team engineer from that perspective. Wonder how Penske are going to use him?

They are certainly a major player in other categories from a constructor perspective.

[djr81]

Originally Posted by Jack65

Think the point being made is it in the best interests of the sport to be having $1 million salaries for behind the scenes the staff? Nothing against the individuals involved, it they can get that sought of money then good luck to them. But it's not going to bring any more dollars in, so if there is a large increase in staff costs, other things might have to be cut like on track time.

My point was that the engineers are no longer behind the scenes staff and they, by the nature of their jobs, create interest in the series and thereby potentially bring in more money. No idea why, for example, paying James Courtney his rumoured salary is fine and Ludo Lacroix (Or Dutton or De Borre or Keed or Hollway or any of the others)not fine. Much of the sponsorship money is still automotive and engineering related and much of the interest in the series is from trades and professions aligned to those industries. There is a direct link between interest in the series and good engineering. It doesnt have to be all about instagram pictures of (insert name of favourite driver here) lunch and/or new jet ski.

[peckstar]

Originally Posted by Axeman444

I'm not understanding where the line is on what we are or are not talking about

seriously dude, why rip out part sentences to create some point

either quote whole paragraphs or dont quote. Might help you to understand

[Umai Naa]

Originally Posted by djr81

Why is that? What is it about engineers that means they deserve to be lowly paid? If the drivers can get paid huge salaries why shouldnt the bloke with the brains get paid properly as well?

You missed my point.

I never suggested he was neither under, nor overpaid.

The sport has so far managed to contain, to a degree, the various arms races with chassis development, testing, and a few other things. At which point do they step in (again), and try and metre what's being spent through the HR department, before the costs get to a point where the series as a whole, teeters on the edge of unstustainability... again?

[djr81]

Originally Posted by Umai Naa

You missed my point.

I never suggested he was neither under, nor overpaid.

The sport has so far managed to contain, to a degree, the various arms races with chassis development, testing, and a few other things. At which point do they step in (again), and try and metre what's being spent through the HR department, before the costs get to a point where the series as a whole, teeters on the edge of unstustainability... again?

Sometime after everyone gets paid would be my opinion. Other than a few drivers (& managers) and maybe now engineers motorsport is not exactly a well paid profession. Good luck to them if they can generate some decent coin for all the hard work they put in.