Clipsal Safety Car Infringements & Penalties

[Trevor]

Originally Posted by ff s conscience

I found it amusing how they blew smoke up 888 s bum when the restart thing happened, then 888 car controller failed in his role.

Page 1, Rule 1, top of page in bold, underlined...

DONT TOUCH THE CAR!

ooops.

there could have been some doubt about him touching the car when the other bloke was touching it as well, but when the other bloke walked off and the car controller was still rooting around with the front, then he is as guilty as sin

[Trevor]

Originally Posted by GTRMagic

The thread title is now fixed...

Meantime, the description from Mr White about the way that a suspected restart failure seemed logical... to see the cars in front do something that looked wrong, likely confirming with judges of fact (holding radar guns?) then calling the breach as a PLP...

Mr White is a very approachable person, not sure he would enjoy having to argue every single point with the 888 guys any time they are the subject of a call that ultimately proves to be correct, but that the team stands fast as being wronging them...

The story in the garages suggest that many of the complaints against 888 for various alleged breaches, are actually allegedly coming from a couple of other teams in the lane (more than one colour too..), requesting clarification of the event from the powers that be...

The same teams however regularly have issues in the lane themselves... so you might argue if the focus was on themselves, and not on the others, their lives might be somehow less fundamentally flawed

this whole 'judges of fact' is dodgy GTR and you know it, there was no guns hanging over the fence, they would have been in their normal place in pit lane, White bumbled and stumbled his way through the interview, then threw in the 'judges of fact' thing to put some importance on their decision, they should have waited until the end of the race then downloaded the data from the cars, then they would have had the 'facts' to support a penalty, not just some opinion that they come up with

[Chappelli]

Originally Posted by Trevor

Did they? Damian White didn't seem to sure, they should of held off with their penalty until the downloaded the data from the cars concerned, then IF they were at fault then hit them for some points.

Yep.... They did.

If you've got evidence that suggests otherwise lay it on the table.

If they got a radar gun on the leader, which is logical given the way the rule is written, then why treat it any different to a pit lane speeding infringement?

Not sure how White being unsure changes anything, he's neither the guy making the decision or the guy doing the measuring.... I'm sure he was oblivious to where Moffat tapped Holdsworth, doesn't mean it didn't happen.

[smokin'joe]

Originally Posted by Trevor

this whole 'judges of fact' is dodgy GTR and you know it, there was no guns hanging over the fence, they would have been in their normal place in pit lane, White bumbled and stumbled his way through the interview, then threw in the 'judges of fact' thing to put some importance on their decision, they should have waited until the end of the race then downloaded the data from the cars, then they would have had the 'facts' to support a penalty, not just some opinion that they come up with

exactly, also find it amsing that the AZ seemed to only be marked by signs mounted high on the safety fence, and not marked on the track surface ?? or did i miss something ??

surely the start/finish line should be the acceleration point if such a farcical restart technique is needed?

[Casper]

It is a constant puzzle to me how Damien ever got to where he is having known him from his karting days.

[Trevor]

Originally Posted by Casper

It is a constant puzzle to me how Damien ever got to where he is having known him from his karting days.

everyone and I mean everyone has to start somewhere, then we build our knowledge as we go, we weren't all born with superior knowledge on the career path of our choice

[GTRMagic]

There are many others you might take the time to wonder about before Mr White....

[Casper]

You weren't there.

[Trev Campbell]

I posted this in the Clipsal thread, but have copied it here as it seemd appropriate

I was sitting in the Pit Straight Grand Stand directly in line with the first 'AZ' marker. From where I was with a very good vantage point Van Gisbergen and Rick, didn't accelerate before the AZ sign. They may have crept over 60 k's (That I can't tell without data) but from my position it actually looked like Whincup slowed on the front straight for whatever reason, Whincup slowing was also the real trigger point for the Bright roll over. I expected Jamie to get a penalty for the restart and was dumbfounded when the SVG and Rick announcement was made. The explanation of the penalty seems about as technical as mine. 'This it what it looked like' no hard data on what actually happened. I also think the iffy Whincup penalty was a square up for the botched SC penalties. It's all just very poor for what is supposed to be the best category in the country.

[GTRMagic]

Originally Posted by Trev Campbell

I posted this in the Clipsal thread, but have copied it here as it seemd appropriate

I was sitting in the Pit Straight Grand Stand directly in line with the first 'AZ' marker. From where I was with a very good vantage point Van Gisbergen and Rick, didn't accelerate before the AZ sign. They may have crept over 60 k's (That I can't tell without data) but from my position it actually looked like Whincup slowed on the front straight for whatever reason, Whincup slowing was also the real trigger point for the Bright roll over. I expected Jamie to get a penalty for the restart and was dumbfounded when the SVG and Rick announcement was made. The explanation of the penalty seems about as technical as mine. 'This it what it looked like' no hard data on what actually happened. I also think the iffy Whincup penalty was a square up for the botched SC penalties. It's all just very poor for what is supposed to be the best category in the country.

Lets play conspiracy theorists for a second... imagine if the #1 was told to drop speed when behind the other two under the control of the SC... to accentuate the look that Mr van Gisbergen & Mr Kelly jumped the start...

Stranger things have happened.... a peek at the data would tell all

[peckstar]

Originally Posted by GTRMagic

Lets play conspiracy theorists for a second... imagine if the #1 was told to drop speed when behind the other two under the control of the SC... to accentuate the look that Mr van Gisbergen & Mr Kelly jumped the start...

Stranger things have happened.... a peek at the data would tell all

it crossed my mind the moment Damien said it. would be unlike triple 8 to push the boundry of the rules though.. Oh wait they did and got caught later in the race

[Bell_End]

Lets play conspiracy theorists for a second... imagine if they had the radar gun on the cars coming upto the AZ and noticed the first two cars going slightly higher than 60km/h.....

[peckstar]

Originally Posted by Bell_End

Lets play conspiracy theorists for a second... imagine if they had the radar gun on the cars coming upto the AZ and noticed the first two cars going slightly higher than 60km/h.....

which might be true if they had radar guns on the cars, but Larko was out on pit wall, never spotted them or talked about them, bet you he will next race if they are there.

the problem was that D White suggested as aprt of his explanation that you could tell because of the gap that arose between Rick and Jamie. Vague in its explanation and suits the conspiracy theory. He probably should have stopped at radar gun.

edit and why only 60, why not a higher speed

Personally, in what was the first time trial of this process, I think that maybe a bad sporstman ship flag would have suited, rather than ruin the race especially with the rules not explained to the fans before hand (and apparantly not even the commentators)

[Samwhk]

I think it's a bit odd that 2 days later, and we still haven't had confirmation either way that the 2 lead cars did speed.
If they did, I would have thought V8SC would release some data traces showing that, so the fans, teams and everyone who thought it was a bullshit call could see that in fact it was a legit penalty.
If they didn't, I would have thought that Tekno and Nissan would release the traces and say, see, we didn't break the rules.
It'd be nice to have some transparency around this.

[Trev Campbell]

Bell_End, If that were the case and Damien had of categorically said 'We had the radar on them and caught them speeding' the issue would be dead.

But he came out and said ' We have a range of options radar and visual, the gap between the 1st, 2nd and 3rd cars increased so it's resonable to assume they spead up' indicating that they basically guessed. isn't it also reasonable to assume the 3rd car may have slowed down ????

[Bell_End]

A mentioned above we also don't have the #15 & #97 teams coming out with their wheel speed traces showing the world they were hard done by...

Originally Posted by peckstar

which might be true if they had radar guns on the cars, but Larko was out on pit wall, never spotted them or talked about them, bet you he will next race if they are there.

I wasn't as Clipsal this year, but in years passed (and at other tracks) I have always seen someone manning a radar gun along pit lane so its within the realm of possibility that they had it on the cars or some of the cars (eg they knew Whinge was sitting on 60km/h for example) as the restart happened epically after making a big song and dance about it in the drivers briefing.

Anyway I still think the lack of "hard done by crys" from Tekno/Nissan means they were onto something with the penalty.

[Langers]

Exactly - if Tekno and Nissan were not in the wrong, they would have released video with telemetry by now (unless afraid of bringing sport into disrepute).

[GROUPA]

The worrying factor is the officals. V8SC consistently promotes itself as the best series of it's kind in the world - they have had the Christmas/New Year period to look into rule changes and communicate these rule changes etc....

Sure stuff ups happen in motorsport but it seems the norm rather than the exception in V8SC

[champcarman]

Whether Damien is out of his depth (in this instance) or not I am not sure but he was only enforcing an unfortunate rule he may or may not have had a hand in devising.

What I am concerned about is that he seems to be the spokesperson for V8 Supercars when it comes to the Aero testing which he (?) seems to have corrected in the case of the Nissan Altimas but appears to have been a bit generous in the case of the Volvo S60.

[NinnyMan]

Originally Posted by Umai Naa

Matt White is also a DVS team owner.

....and the HRT cars are painted in a matt white finish : )

Originally Posted by champcarman

What I am concerned about is that he seems to be the spokesperson for V8 Supercars
when it comes to the Aero testing which he (?) seems to have corrected in the case of the Nissan Altimas but appears to
have been a bit generous in the case of the Volvo S60.

Whispers suggest a potential mid year review of the aero on the Volvo and the aero changes to Nissan!!!!
The Nissan wing is huge. Sports Sedan esk. From front on you can hardly see the wing on the VF, FG and AMG
but it's pretty obvious on the Nissan. From the rear view, the gap from the top of the boot to the bottom edge of
the wing is also massive on the Nissan compared to the others.

[GROUPA]

Mercedes Benz were using wind tunnels in the 1950's to design the Ulerhardt Coupe and others V8SC dont use one at all

[Mixer]

Originally Posted by GROUPA

Mercedes Benz were using wind tunnels in the 1950's to design the Ulerhardt Coupe and others V8SC dont use one at all

Mercedes made the choice then not to use CFD for cost reasons

[Mixer]

The man himself speaks:

The data is in. Shane Van Gisbergen – 68km/h, Rick Kelly – 72km/h, Jamie Whincup – 59km/h.

http://www.v8supercars.com.au/news/c...om-clipsal-500

[mikuni]

Good on him.

At 59km/h I wonder if 888 were using a speed limiter for the restart and the officials may have even known that, but didn't want to elude to that fact when explaining why the penalty was given. It may haved appeared to outsiders as though the officials were giving certain teams preferential treatment by knowing limiters are in use for some and not others.

[TWRv12]

Originally Posted by mikuni

Good on him.

At 59km/h I wonder if 888 were using a speed limiter for the restart and the officials may have even known that, but didn't want to elude to that fact when explaining why the penalty was given. It may haved appeared to outsiders as though the officials were giving certain teams preferential treatment by knowing limiters are in use for some and not others.

Maybe the teams that didn't bother to sort out a limiter, will now do so...