BTCC Knockhill 28th August - was disgraceful driving punished?

[JohnD]

All,
Just watched the BTCC races from Knockhill last weekend (28th) on ITV. Okay, the weather was awful, but in both races driver behaviour was disgraceful. Plato and Muller both 'tagged' - a word that should be banned in favour of 'pushed off' - other drivers so blatently that the commentators exclaimed and the post race discussion HAD to feature it. They were not alone. All the drivers, of course, protested their innocence when interviewed by the TV crew.

What was NOT mentioned was any intervention by the Race Officials. Did any marshal make a report about driving standards and was any action taken? This sort of thing infects other series and is bringing motorsport into disrepute.

John

[Mark Mitchell]

I agree John - but I actually think that this sort of driving is encouraged in this series!
It's more of a show to the paying public if this sort of thing happens, and let's face it, those that pay to watch the BTCC probably don't spectate at any other motorsport events.
I have now stopped marshalling at BTCC events simply because the Clerk Of The Course will not take any action against such manouvres as witness today on the Television. In all honesty, I think the Clerk is probably just a puppet to the TOCA people.
Who wants to pay and just see a good race eh?

It IS funny though when some of the drivers in "Lesser" (*) championships try to drive like their BTCC "Idols" only for them to be hauled before a PROPER Clerk who has acted on the reports from his Observers and dealt with them accordingly.

The Touring Car circus, like Formula 1, IS NOT proper racing!

(*) Lesser as in the eyes of the TV people et al!
We all know that a small club event is a million times better!

[jim69]

How can they call it a championship when it started this year with 10-12 cars. They should have cancelled it.
Look at other countries and there top tin top championships. Full grids all over Australia and Germany to mention just two. TOCA is now a joke.

[Kicking-back]

It's now up to 17 cars and looking better for next year.

On the subject of driving standards, the promos being played over the speakers at Knockhill were emphasising the "Crash, Bang, Wallop" so clearly it's what the organisers want.

[roys1]

I totally disagree with this statment Mark the clerk is a very well respected well known clerk who has years of experience and i believe would not dance to any ones tune.

[shjo558]

It was very frustrating last week. You spot something, tell the observer, it's reported and written up then nothing happens.

I spotted a touring car driver overtaking under a waved yellow last week at Knockhill in the 3rd race, observer didn't see it - was looking other way, however, asked the observer to report it. What happened afterwards? Nothing that I know of.

Then you have a club meeting, and the drivers get hammered for the slightest thing.

All I ask for is a bit of consistency across motorsport!

[Mark Mitchell]

Originally Posted by roys1

I totally disagree with this statment Mark the clerk is a very well respected well known clerk who has years of experience and i believe would not dance to any ones tune.

So why is it then that no action is taken against the persistant apalling driving?
Are the reports from Observers just no good at BTC meetings?

I know all-but-one of the Permanent Clerks on the Toca tour personally and agree that they are top-flight Clerks. BUT when they are officiating with the Toca circus, none of them appear to take any action over incidents that they would normally take action over, on a normal clubbie event!

[davemullender]

Originally Posted by Mark Mitchell

It IS funny though when some of the drivers in "Lesser" (*) championships try to drive like their BTCC "Idols" only for them to be hauled before a PROPER Clerk who has acted on the reports from his Observers and dealt with them accordingly.

Personally I don't find it funny at all, its a horrendous double-standard which needs to be stamped on. At every event I seem to attend Driving Standards are continually being commented on (and quite rightly to), however those drivers go home and see the BTCC guys driving like a bunch of mindless loons and continually getting away with it.

The longer the BTCC boys and girls are allowed to get away with dangerous or suspect driving practices the harder it is for all the other club series to re-inforce sensible close racing without needless contact.

[924nut]

I think that the bottom line to this is MONEY - we as genuine motorsport fans, marshals etc dont want to see these double standards - but if the organisers of a "SHOW" (and thats all it is to them) can produce something to get the hype going then they will keep doing it - The money is so big - with all the TV deals that they will continue to get away with it unfortunately

[roys1]

Mark, i believe that observers reports would be acted upon however one observer cannot see everything in a field of 17/18 cars bunched up with close racing.... and with the dreadful weather it would be impossible............................................. yours with respect to all observers (including you Mark) Roy

[Mark Mitchell]

Originally Posted by roys1

Mark, i believe that observers reports would be acted upon however one observer cannot see everything in a field of 17/18 cars bunched up with close racing.... and with the dreadful weather it would be impossible

I was generalising!

Originally Posted by roys1

............................................. yours with respect to all observers (including you Mark) Roy

Sorry, for just a moment I had this vision of you in a yellow shell-suit, bling and wrap-around shades!!

[Hepatic]

I know Muller got endorsments for the 1st race but what about Plato? That bloke, although "entertaining" as Antony Reid is, is downright bloody dangerous. He tried to swerve the blame for spinning the honda (i think) out at the hairpin by saying he didn't see him. Eh? The bright yellow car in front of you, you blind !!!

I agree with Mark, the CoCs are pandering to TOCA because it's getting punters in, but is it worth it when eventually some looney is going to cause a big crash and someone will get hurt? I think they let it go because that's the only way people will enjoy a small grid of cars racing. Get 24-28 cars on track then we might see them clamp down a bit, but i ain't holding my breath...

[roys1]

Sorry, for just a moment I had this vision of you in a yellow shell-suit, bling and wrap-around shades!!

Thats my Saturday night attire.. BUT DON'T TELL EVERYONE Whoops

[Mark Mitchell]

Originally Posted by davemullender

Personally I don't find it funny at all

Figure of Speech dave.

[Stephen Green]

Originally Posted by davemullender

Personally I don't find it funny at all, its a horrendous double-standard which needs to be stamped on. At every event I seem to attend Driving Standards are continually being commented on (and quite rightly to), however those drivers go home and see the BTCC guys driving like a bunch of mindless loons and continually getting away with it.

The longer the BTCC boys and girls are allowed to get away with dangerous or suspect driving practices the harder it is for all the other club series to re-inforce sensible close racing without needless contact.

Dave,

It's frustrating for marshals too as we report what we see and then on occasion little is done. As you rightly say in other series/formula drivers are punished for lesser offences. There is no simple answer Im afraid and I think we have to accept that at the highest level (?) for the sake of TV figures, these actions are allowed to continue.

For people such as yourself, racing on a limited budget, it must be incredibly frustrating!

Stephen.

[NWFF 37]

I personally just dont understand how Plato and Muller got away with their 'tactics', surely if Plato says Howell passed under a yellow, why doesnt he report that?

I just cant see how a CoC, TOCA tour or MSA, or whoever else chips in to organize it, cannot feel the need to do something when there is all this coverage highlighting it.

And as for the comments by VX, that Team Dynamics should'nt be running a 3rd car... why on earth can vauxhall run 3 cars and not them??? is it me or is that childish double standards. Im sure WSR would like to run 3 cars, but as Steve Neal says, budgets are budgets.

[touringlegend]

If you only watched the highlights of the races, then I can see why you think this as the programme is designed around the 'action' such as this.

Originally posted by Mark Mitchell
It's more of a show to the paying public if this sort of thing happens, and let's face it, those that pay to watch the BTCC probably don't spectate at any other motorsport events.

Well, isn't that what the BTCC has been for a number of years anyway, entertainment for the general public ?

BTW - I spectate at other events..

[Dave Brand]

What really annoyed me was, after blatantly & deliberately turning in on another driver, who may or may not have overtaken under yellows, the worst & most habitual offender had the gall to say that 'there may have been marshals on the track; we need to protect those who help us'. How do you protect marshals by forcing other drivers off? If he really does care for our safety, he should consider retiring - that would be the single biggest contribution to improved driving standards anyone could make!

Maybe it's time to start hitting the habitual offenders where it really hurts. Fines, endorsements, etc., aren't working. Punish them by loss of championship points, even exclusion from the meeting.

I can see no reason for ever marshalling at another TOCA meeting; the weekend of Oulton's meeting next year will see me at Mallory, Cadwell, anywhere........

[Teletubby]

How can anybody expect the Clerk to act against any driver when reports from Observers are of the "car XX was overtaken by another car under yellow flags", what use is that? I'm not suggesting that all reports are that poor but we need to consider that without any evidence it is impossible for the Clerk to act. This may appear worse at a ToCA meeting because it is much more high profile and judicials are taken much more seriously by the Teams and Drivers who are accompanied by representatives to hearings.

[davemullender]

Originally Posted by Teletubby

How can anybody expect the Clerk to act against any driver when reports from Observers are of the "car XX was overtaken by another car under yellow flags", what use is that? I'm not suggesting that all reports are that poor but we need to consider that without any evidence it is impossible for the Clerk to act.

In the case of the BTCC races I would have thought the extensive TV footage plus the in-car camera's monitoring every move would make it absolute heaven for the CoC to take action as he has not only the observers reports but also totally unbiased visual evidence to make a decision on.

I can understand it must be difficult to take action given the 'commercial' pressures on the officials, and mid-seasion its impossible you can imagine the complaints from teams..."why did we get punished when xxx did exactly the same move last race" type arguments. It would need a buy-in from the commerical side as well and unfortunately I doubt that will happen until someone (driver/marshall/spectator) gets hurt at which point "the public" won't stand for it and so the "commercial" pressures change.

Dave

[Andrew Kitson]

I switched the TV off before the programme started. I have no idea who won the races at Knockhill despite the fact I have watched hundreds of BTCC touring and saloon car races both live and on TV since the 60s. As this sort of driving is presently encouraged by Gow and the TV people, I no longer waste my time on it. See this thread I started on the driving standards from a few weeks ago.
http://tentenths.com/forum/showthread.php?t=72255

[Neil Adams]

Originally Posted by Mark Mitchell

let's face it, those that pay to watch the BTCC probably don't spectate at any other motorsport events.

thats not the case for me, i also see many familiar faces at all the races i go to

muller was penalised for his part in knockhill shenigans, platos move looked like it really should have been but wasnt, overall i agree more should be done to curtail blatant ramming or pushing other cars off

[Nighthawk]

[/QUOTE]How can anybody expect the Clerk to act against any driver when reports from Observers are of the "car XX was overtaken by another car under yellow flags", what use is that?[QUOTE]

Yes i agree the reports that i have seen go in are very sparse on facts so what is the C.0.C to do....

[Al Weyman]

I have been banging on about this for years and noticed a downturn in driving standards in the championship I used to run when the new generation of this championship was first screened what, 10 years ago. I remember after continualy telling one driver to tidy it up due to complaints from other competitors he turned around and asked me if I had watched Touring cars lately! We had to end up banning him from the club which was not nice but that is the lessons being shown to young drivers by the 'professional'.

If this is what they (TOCA) want than rebrand the status of the championship to semi-contact so there is a clear distinction between what they are doing and the rest of us want from the sport.

[mc1arke]

I was on the chicane at the weekend and we ended up with one very annoyed observer by the end. When Smith came off at the start of the third race I and one other marshal ran down to his car, found we couldn't push it so got Smith out and ran back up to the post. Our observer radioed in that the car was in a safe position (which it was, we had only has one other car near that position in the whole weekend) but the safety car was already scrambled as the Clerks were watching it on TV. Our observer wanted to know what the point of having him standing there getting wet if the Clerks could make an "informed" decision from the warmth and dry of race control. We were also reporting car number 12 in the touring cars for cutting the corners and taking out the bollards and we got a message back from the Clerks and Mr A. Gow at the end saying it couldn't have been car 12 as it had no marks on if from hitting floppies - our whole post must be reading the numbers wrong!