Marshalling at Mallory yesterday (9th April)...

[Stuart Hill]

OK, time for my turn....

Firstly, I was NOT at Mallory on this day and so my comments are directed at the thread and NOT at any individual.

and so, with both cheeks firmly on either side of the fence, how about we assume the following?

EVERYONE did as they should, in no particular order, (Marshals, Drivers, Rescue, Clerks, Observers and all) which lead to no-one else getting seriously hurt.

BUT!!! I hear you all say, it could have been much worse!! This is very true which I feel is the real reason for this thread, not some free for-all to slag-off other members of our chosen hobby. (not saying that anyone has done so yet, but it seems to be heading that way)

So, can "WE" (all of Motorsport) learn anything from this incident? I (IMHO) think the answer is yes and here are my thoughts;

1) Marshals need to be more aware of Driver's views whilst racing.
This has been covered at many very good training days this year but may need some fine-tuning.

2) Drivers need to be more aware of exactly how a race is conducted.
Just what are the Marshal's instructions and how are flags implimented?

3) Why are Flag posts where they are?
Is it because they are the safest place or are they there for the drivers?


having re-read this thread many times, to try and discover exactly where any driver was at any given time, what strikes me is that maybe the positioning of flag points needs reviewing.

Taking just this one incident for example, with the accepted proviso that every flag was displayed as required, but transfering it to any other road circuit, how about this idea.........?

Every Post has to be on the "other" side of the track from the previous post

Yes, I know lots of posts would need to be relocated, but it would give the drivers a much better chance to see (and less chance to miss) any displayed flags which, less face it, is the only reason we bother to wave our flags.
If the driver's can't see us, then what's the point?

As I stated at the start of this post (for those of you who've forgotten ) I was not at Mallory and am only speaking from what I've read and from 20+ yrs experience of marshalling.

[James Elder]

Exactly - I think how busy the drivers are is an issue here - once they are into this right hander, everything is happening really quickly, so flag signals can be the least of your worries. An earlier signal facility is a tempting option (see the box on the left in the photos - that could be ideal) - at least the drivers would get some info as they approach the Esses, rather than when they are busy going through them.

[numbersix]

Three blown up images of the post on the LHS show a (dark) red splodge with a yellow splodge behind it. It this a flag? Banner? What?

[The STIG]

Ok, having looked at the photos I notice this...


click here for full size

1. is clearly a marshals post - the orangy red thing is apparently a marshal - it's much to big to be a flag.

2. is yellow but no where near the post, thus probably not a yellow flag

3. is presumably the next post - something yellow is there, but it's not a flag either. Given that the camera shows this post as being cyan in the first pic, it's fair to assume that vibration induced interference could be causing the yellow bit. (I know a bit about cameras!), not really knowing Mallory or what happened, this is all I can really say about the situation.

Devon Kev, (nice name by the way), I was also at the Pembrey training, saw the same video and I think I saw one or two flags. The most obvious one was the yellow/red one on post 9, shortly before the stealth nerfed the Ginetta.

As far as training videos are concerned, I belive that to truely get a drivers eye veiw, you need to use a different camera position. A camera mounted to the side of the driver's helmet, just behind the visor hinge would give a better idea of what a driver can (or can't see). Such cameras do exist, but wether they would pass scrutineering or not is another matter.

*shuts up before gets too far off the topic*

[GORDON STREETER]

Having been in motosport since 1969 I can honestly say that I have had my Knuckles rapped a few times by the clerk of the course a few times for flag infringments all missed yellows. As has been pointed out when concentrating in the heat of the race especially when bumper to bumper it is easy to miss a flag . As for using coloured lights at posts maybe. but one of the biggest crashes at the Spa 6hr a couple of years ago was in the dark and this was under yellow flashing lights that I could have seen from Calais !

[Woolley]

A fascinating discussion, and many thanks for putting up the pictures, and for everyone's contributions.

Allowing for the fact that the video is wider angle than normal eyesight, and the lighting is not perfect, I reckon I can see flags - yellow (stationary?) just in front of the marshals box and red (waved) just after. I presume that waved yellow was on 8, then.

The important point there is 'I reckon'. And I'm staring closely at the pictures, not possibly catching them out of the corner of my eye while concentrating on keeping the car under control, the cars around me and the marshals' box being well off to the left of where you're looking for the corner.

In summary, I suspect the video proves that the flag marshals did do their job properly. It also shows that seeing that is terribly difficult for the drivers especially in the heat of battle. It suggests that siting of the flag positions may not be good, and that while waving a yellow at 8 was probably correct, it would have been more useful at 7 with the stationary along the straight at 6. It also makes it very clear that the FIA one-flag-only guidleines aren't even good enough for Minis never mind fast sports cars or single seaters.

For the safety of everyone, this needs to be a learning experience. I agree with JimW, I really don't think lights will be any better unless sited on a gantry low over the track which introduces new dangers. Moving the barriers away from the track is not entirely improving safety, it's just switching the danger from the drivers to the marshals.

I was going to merge this with the 'waved yellow flags' thread, but interestingly they've headed in completely different directions now.

[candfracing]

Now this is getting wierd. I have seen footage from a spectator, and it clearly shows the flags. Now there is some sort of wicked wizardary going on that makes these flags invisible to the drivers.

Take a look at this. You will also notice that none of the drivers have seemed to have seen the flags, not just me?

http://www.ginetta27.freeserve.co.uk/red_flag.wmv

This begs the question, is the post at the correct position. For some strange reason, at track level, these flags are being magically invisible??????

It's really strange, because on thought is that I feel guilty for not seeing the flags, but then how can we all miss these flags???? It really doesn't make sense, lets hope the BRSCC can get to the bottom of it!?!?

BTW, I can confirm that those photos are all still shots of the same lap, at no other time was I in 2nd position that far behind the leader Pat Ford.

[Dan Friel]

Cheers for getting this up. Two observations.

1. The waved yellow disappears just as you (the pack) approach the post. None of the drivers should be accountable for missing it. It seems from me that the moment the red flag comes out the yellow is dropped.

2. The red flag is being waved against the contrast of the trees and the marshal waving it seems to be dressed in red (this might just be a trick of the light but it's extremely difficult to pick that flag out from the manner it's being waved).

[The Fat Clerk]

Must be a trick of the light. I was wearing a grey sweatshirt & I was waving the red @ 7

[The Fat Clerk]

Interesting that when you check the results for the race on the BRSCC website, provided by MST, Car 30 was excluded for 'Red flag infringement'
Surely if the driver was so certain about his innocence as he is protesting here he could have appealed to the Stewards of the Meeting (Blue Book 0 6.1 - page 149.

[Dan Friel]

From reading through the thread, I'm not sure the driver is protesting his innocence... Having seen the video, i could certainly see why he might have though!

The yellow flag shouldn't have been withdrawn, and the red was virtually invisible. Should a waved white also have been shown?? That might have helped in these circumstances..

[Hepatic]

Originally Posted by Dan Friel

The yellow flag shouldn't have been withdrawn, and the red was virtually invisible. Should a waved white also have been shown?? That might have helped in these circumstances..

I think i'll disagree with that one. If you have 2 flaggies on post then it's easy enough for the 2nd person to grab the red, but if you are on your own (not sure in this case) then red is far more important than yellow. Yellow tells the drivers to be wary of an incident on track, red means to stop racing immediately and return at vastly reduced pace to pits / start finish.

Really couldn't tell from the stills, but the video is clear - flags were out as they should have been. What's also pretty obvious is the post where the yellow was is far too far away from the previous corner. Its no way in the line of sight of the drivers. It's not unlike the final flag point on Old Hall - no one is ever looking over there so you're fighting a lost battle trying to communicate with your flags.

There is no defence on the red at the next post tho. If from the vantage point of the specator is clearly being waved vigorously and is directly in the line of sight of the drivers entering the turn, so there's no excuse of missing that.

[Robin_D]

The trouble is, that is where the drivers are lifting off doing 100 mph plus. The video cuts just as craig gets a tap.

[chrischris]

I do agree with Hepatic! The video is much easier to tell than the stills as they were not clear enough to tell if the flags were out or not.

And take a look at this you can see that the flags were waved here aswell
http://www.mightyminis.co.uk/video/mal_hl_s1_09_04_2007.wmv

[candfracing]

I think the point is that the post is probably in the wrong position. As a driver entering the only technical part of the circuit, we are not able to look around for flags. The flags should be obvious. I have studied my video over and over again, and put myself back in the car thinking about it.

Also not only in the wrong position, but perhaps the lighting of the backdrop doesn't help.

I really wish I could show you guys my actual video so you can see in realtime what we see (or not as the case maybe), however, we are not allowed to publically show our in-car cameras due to an indemnity that we have to sign at each race.

The issue is I think that post should be moved to actually be right in line of sight, which I beleive should be on the inside of the circuit and not the outside, which is outside of the field of vision because we are looking for a turning point.

Just want to point out again, that the reason I didn't protest, and I was constantly hounded by all the other drivers to protest, was that I'm only racing for fun and don't want to get into the politics of protesting. Also, this post wasn't to claim my innocence, only to highlight that there is a possible issue with us drivers seeing the flags.

Many thanks to all to not actually shoot me down and actually be constructive! Again, we are all there for the same reason and thats to have fun!

It has been suggested to us, that we actually stop discussing this issue until after Friday's BRSCC meeting where it will be looked at.

Once again, many thanks to all you guys who make our day safe!

Look forward to meeting some of you guys some day! It would be good to see the action from your point of view some day!

[Piglet]

Good debating guys - well done.

[ditchy19]

well iam handing my licence back to the msa or going to spec savers, me and a good few other drivers were staring at that post and couldnt see a flag (jeez what chance do i stand in a race). i must appologize to the marshals in that post, ya obviously doing a great job.

[Peter Harding]

Well now it's all done and dusted, I come in.
When/if I do any training, I will now re-iterate
1. Obs and flags walking the appraoch to their post at 8.40 to check what the driver can see today (height/backgrounds etc) Yes I know it's obvious but...
2 Be aware that the yellow (dayglo these days) is great in front of dark trees but red maybe not so.. is there a shade of red we should prefer. should red in these cases be waved very low. Should barriers in front of flag posts always be a good background colour.

In small cars the driver is sitting one foot above ground and we are standing 4-5 feet above them and waving at our eye level. Thats a height difference of about 6 foot.

[AndyCox]

Whew, that took a while to read.

The video shown gives a clue as to why the driver did not see the flag as it shows the orange car immediately behind the red car while the yellows were out. As car 30 pulled out and overtook the red car (under stationery yellow? ) this is when the yellow was dropped and only the red was visible for a few seconds before entering the corner, if that.

As a clerk I always like to see in the reports how long a particular flag has been displayed so as to judge if a driver has had plenty of warning of a situation, in this case only a few seconds and being "blind" to the yellow I can see where the driver is coming from.

So, flags displayed? yes. Driver broke the rules? yes. Could we blame him? tough call and I'm glad I wasn't the Clerk trying to make that decision! The fact that Hi-Vis nylon type flags are not used at many circuits and only dirty, dull cotton types are available do not help any as the red is practically invisible. Solution? As a minimum, new flags please! Jim's idea of lights? yes, absolutely!

[Alan Crook]

Originally Posted by AndyCox

Whew, that took a while to read.

Always thought you were a bit slow.

[AndyCox]

Hey, I only get to read this stuff during lunchtime and it wasn't the first thread ANNNND it was 5 pages with video's to watch!

[Woolley]

Originally Posted by candfracing

Many thanks to all to not actually shoot me down and actually be constructive!

No problems. Your original post was constructive in itself, and as a regular flaggie I've found this whole thread very useful, as I'm sure have others. In fact, I think this has been a model thread of how to debate a controversial issue. Well done all. I shall view the videos when at home.

[ss_collins]

As a driver I'm finally going to weigh in, I've not raced a mini, doubt I'd fit. I'm a bit colour blind as are many males (whether they know it or not) so had to get clearance from the MSA to race. But the yellows in the vids are pretty obvious from the ppoint of view of the camera, but when the red comes out its almost invisible at that angle.

In general its not always easy to see flags, in a single seater often the flags are just out of your line of sight, especially if you are drafting someone or in a big scrap. Yellow / Red lights would work well in many situations and I think more tracks should employ them. Also could full course yellows be employed in the US style more often?

It would be good if a race school with plentiful sing seaters could give Marshals a run round to show them how different it is. I've always though that there is too much of a divide between drivers and marshals and the two should work more closely together.

[Stone-kicker]

After flogging my way through all the above (without the aid of the video's) I seem to remember we have been through all of this before, about 15 years ago.

If my memory serves me correctly, it was a Thunder Saloons race with Gerry Marshal at the wheel and camera on board. I think many of the same points were raised then as now (not by this method though!) and yet we don't seem to have been able to improve our methods, despite the "progress" made in other areas of the sport.

[cameratart]

As a late entry to this thread (and the flag marshal on Post 6), I would like to point out that, even if there is some debate regarding the flags on Post 7, a yellow is clearly visible on Post 6 (Stebbe Straight). All the drivers should have seen that as they exited Gerrards. When the Red Flag was called, one of the Course marshals took over the yellow when I grabbed the red, so that we had both flags.

And for those who weren't there but have asked about the numbers of flag marshals, there was only 1 per Post