V8 SuperTourers in NZ - 'Car Of Tomorrow'

[on_to_it]

It seems that a very "informative" post I read this morning has been removed already. Trouble brewing perhaps?

[MarioNZ]

Originally Posted by on_to_it

It seems that a very "informative" post I read this morning has been removed already. Trouble brewing perhaps?

Maybe the truth has changed since this morning??

[on_to_it]

Originally Posted by MarioNZ

Maybe the truth has changed since this morning??

Spoken like a true Chaolin monk! But I get your drift.

We will have to watch this space, Master.

[FraserGT]

oh, just when it was starting to get interesting.

If only they had started the message "rumor has it..."

[on_to_it]

Yeah, I agree! But I'm picking it will get more interesting pretty soon. If you are in Auckland, go to the Speedshow this weekend and compare the SuperT with the new NZV8. Bring your chequebook because they'll be taking orders!

One change is that MNZ said the current NZV8 would be good for two seasons and now it looks like it may only be one. From the MNZ website; “Construction of the new generation Ford FG and Holden VE models that will be introduced for the 2012/13 season is well underway and further details will be released next month,”

[harcey]

Originally Posted by FraserGT

oh, just when it was starting to get interesting.

If only they had started the message "rumor has it..."

'Rumour has it' that Hampton Downs may shortly be in the hands of a statutory manager.
i imagine this would have a significant affect on the V8ST and H/D shared cost /profit deal for the 2012 series

[Tourer]

Originally Posted by FraserGT

oh, just when it was starting to get interesting.

If only they had started the message "rumor has it..."

or ..... "some say"

[promax]

Some say... that in a previous life he was a muscle car and he can "drive a stick" only with his left foot.

All we know is, he's called The Stig"

[StraightLine]

Originally Posted by Tourer

or ..... "some say"

Interesting that this website was pressured to remove this post even thou the information within it is 100% fact! Do forums not want to publish the truth as there seem to be a number of misinformed posts on here. Interesting that Mark Petch didn't dispute the facts just wanted to know who I am?? The truth must have hit a nerve!


Just to let everyone know the true story about the split between the new ST class and the majority of the NZV8/Veega shareholders, here are the real facts:

NZV8s/Veega shareholders voted at Taupo in March 2010 to commission the board of directors to finalize the plan and price for a new V8 chassis for the current or new teams and shareholders to move the category forward.
April 2010 at the Hamilton V8 Supercar event the board presented the Paul Seprnich designed chassis and indicative price to the shareholders with a progression plan for the whole group to upgrade their cars. The NZV8/Veega shareholders were unanimous with their support towards the new project and a number of NZV8/Veega shareholders in good faith invested in the first prototype car to be built. This car was meant to have been built tested and displayed during the 2010/11 V8 championship series. This didn't happen in fact the prototype chassis didn't turn up until February 2011 along with the knowledge that 3 of the NZV8/Veega board of directors headed by Mark Petch. Wayne Anderson and Garry Pedersen had formed a private company called V8 Supertourers Ltd. back in September 2010 later to be joined by their fellow directors as new directors in the new company John McIntyre and Chris Abbott. There was always an undisclosed plan to take what was initially a NZV8/Veega new car project and effectively take it from the shareholders that the paid for the initial plans for this chassis. This became evident when the car was launched in February 2011 and the announcement of a rebel series lead by Mark Petch and co. On discovery of this information a number of the NZV8/Veega shareholders requested a Vote of no confidence in the board motion to be heard at a Special General Meeting at Taupo in March 2011. On receiving this motion request the NZV8/Veega board of Mark Petch, Wayne Anderson, Garry Pedersen, John McIntyre and Chris Abbott all resigned prior to this meeting.

This left the majority of the NZV8/Veega shareholders in an unfortunate situation of having to put together a new board and a new plan for the class to move forward. In some 4 months the new board lead by Andrew McKenzie have done an awesome job to stabilize the NZV8 class and come back with an exciting new car plan with a new Ford Falcon FG to be launched this weekend at Speedshow. Seven groups tendered for the new car project with the successful tender being racecar manufacturer Mitchell Race Xtreme based in Hamilton.

The new NZV8 is based on a common space frame chassis as the group had unanimously voted on some 12 months earlier. This is a brand new car with similar characteristics to the ST that was commissioned to be built by NZV8/Veega group. The chassis's will be some 200kgs lighter that the existing cars, common suspension components, 9 inch diff, Penske shocks, new Ford and Holden injected engines, 6 speed sequential gearbox, Motec data acquisition system, performance friction brake system, floor mounted pedal box, cockpit adjustable sway bar system and many more innovations. This is an all NZ designed and built car and has very practical design features that provide a real possibility for multiple manufacturers to be involved at a cost effective rate. For the record Paul Seprnich quoted that it would cost approximately $150,000 just to design the aero package for any other possible manufactures that wanted to be involved in ST. NZV8s intend on testing a new Ford Falcon FG and Holden Commodore VE at each of the championship rounds throughout the country and then potentially a new grid of cars will debut at Hamilton April 2012.

I have seen both cars and as much as the Paul Seprnich designed ST car is a very good car, I believe the new NZV8 is every bit as good, but is now a more practical solution for our NZV8 class. This is a NZ designed and built car, making it a more cost effective solution and simpler to repair. The chassis/car is not owned by individuals pushing their own wheelbarrows or making money out of the car and all of the spare parts for the car.

From someone that understands the history of what has gone down here it is a disappointing situation for all V8 teams and fans. There are no winners in the split of our V8 group and it is certainly negative for motorsport.
Almost seems like dejavue with Mark Petch and Tranz-ams!

The facts you be the judge

[brown dog]

thanks for this very informative post Straightline, I read it this morning, followed by MP's retort, then the subsequent deletion of both posts which I found rather surprising.

I guess anyone who is remotely interested/connected with the NZV8's would have been aware of some parts of the events that you posted, so interesting to read the full story as you saw it . Although there are probably more questions raised from your post than answers, such as who owned the IP for the new car being developed by VEEGA, which subsequently re emerged as the NZV8ST? Any many more, such as where did the funding for this new car development come from etc. etc. Maybe Mark can answer some of these?

Agreed there will be no winners from this split, god knows there was barely enough money around to support the one class of Touring Car style V8's, so two classes cannot be an ideal situation in anyones books.

Conrad Timms

P.S. I better copy it in case it gets deleted again!

[Tourer]

Thanks Straightline - goes a long to explaining to someone from over the ditch how this all came about. No doubt others may have different versions of events but then I guess you'd expect that.

Actually, hard to see why it would have been pulled - have seen far, far stronger condemnation of various parties on various threads right across this forum & those posts have often stayed - very strange.

[andy97]

Copied from page 1 of the NZV8 2010/11 thread from Oct 2010:

:
Originally Posted by promax
Planning the future of NZV8

Head of The MotorSport Company Kerry Cooper laid out his vision for the future of New Zealand’s premier race class at the Race Commission workshop.

“Of concern to us and being addressed by our partners, VEEGA, and ourselves is the age and model of Falcon and Commodore we are running in the NZV8s,” Cooper opened.

The disparity between the speed of the two makes has been apparent for a couple of seasons. This year, an all-new VE Commodore package was run on the Holden fleet to try and bring it up to speed with the Ford Falcon. However, changes were quickly made after discovering the new front spoiler was 8km/h slower than the old one.

The solution, dubbed the ‘Prototype Car of Tomorrow’, will be launched in November and debut as a demo car over the new season. The first of these cars will be a VE Commodore, followed closely by a FG Falcon in the line of a single-chassis competition.

Investigation into the possibility of a standard engine block across the championship for the new car and the introduction of more manufacturers is ongoing to ensure the NZV8 championship remains exciting and competitive.

“We have the backing of our Australian counterparts, as long as we don’t use exactly the same formula as them,” Cooper said.

Originally Posted by Mark Petch

Promax,
A lot of 'water has gone under the bridge' since Kerry Cooper's advise to the MSNZ Race Commission, 6 months ago.

For a start, TMC are no longer joint venture partners with VEEGA in NZV8's Ltd.

NZV8's Ltd is now a wholly owned subsidiary company of VEEGA.

The new "Car Of Tomorrow" COT, is managed by a sub committee of VEEGA and the COT prototype and its development are privately funded.

TMC and or MSNZ have no stake in the new car, however they have both endorsed the concept.

The COT car has been designed and built by Paul Ceprnich, of Pace Innovations Pty Ltd, who have also designed and are currently building the first two V8SA Car of the future prototypes. Our car retains a live rear axle, albeit of the three link kind.

The VEEGA sub committee responsible for the COT project is Gary Pederson, Wayne Anderson and myself.

The prototype COT is running approximately 10 weeks late, largely because of the considerably deeper 'pockets of V8SA. However we are not unhappy at this delay as it has allowed us time to re-evaluate our end objectives, and as a consequence of this we will end up with a more resolved concept, that will significantly lower the cost of the Car of Tomorrow, both in terms of its cost and more importantly its running costs.

At this point in time the photo's of the prototype build have only been revealed to VEEGA shareholders, however we do plan to reveal the car and its final specifications to the general media by the end of January 20011.

A complete 'turn Key' Car will cost slightly less than NZ$200,000 [about A$150,000] This is only possible because the whole car is a control spec, and other than Teams being able to do the final assembly, no modifications can be carried out whatsoever.

At the present time you can choose between the FG Falcon Body or the new VE2 Holden Commodore. The rolling chassis is designed to take any approved body, the current Toyota Camry body has already been approved, however the cost of developing the Areo kit will probably prove to be to costly for any New Zealand team, at this present time.

The New Zealand COT will also share the current V8SA approved body work in its entirety.

Whilst the NZ spec car will not be quite as fast as the current Australian V8 Supercar's, the gap between the the two will be much closer between the two than it is currently.

Until the NZ COT prototype has been signed off by the shareholders of VEEGA, no further details or final specifications will be made available.

Mark Petch.
CEO NZV8's Ltd.

[Woolley]

Originally Posted by StraightLine

Interesting that this website was pressured to remove this post even thou the information within it is 100% fact!

But not so much that you're prepared to put your name to them, which always bothers me.
Then again, they weren't refuted by the other side either, merely the suggestion of legal stuff, which also always bothers me.

The post was removed while we reviewed if it is within the site rules, not whether or not the content is factual as we aren't qualified to judge on the latter.

[mountainstar]

So based on MP's own words, what became the "V8 Supertourer" was originally the new NZV8 car. Which I thought was the case.

And at some point obviously, they cut themselves loose, leaving the rest of NZV8's to whatever. I'm sure they expected NZV8's to fold, but obviously they have decided to fight back quickly and what could be decisively.

Now it is all adding up because I couldn't understand how we got from NZV8's and the new car being developed to V8 Supertourers suddenly appearing on the scene. I was like Huh? What?

As I have said before, I've been through this with CART and the irl and their split and what happens when the thirst of egos and quest for power and control come to play. In the quest for the whole pie, they get it eventually but it's a tiny pie, not worth anything. From 1995, they have lost about 85-90% of their fanbase and tv audience. The irl is an irrelevant series now.

A lot of people lost their jobs, their businesses over it.

Can NZ financially support 2 top level touring car series? Along with support series, television, promotion and so on? I have my doubts that is going to work out too well.

I'm not taking sides, but am extremely disappointed this is what has happened.

[Goat Boy]

I think it is disappointing too that there has been a split, but I can understand if the issue with the old board was frustration at having to deal with TMC. Their marketing of the supposed "Premier" series of New Zealand motorsport has been woeful for many years, and as I have said earlier, with support classes as boring as the ones they have in Tier One, who would want to go? Has it escaped everyone's attention that the best and most competitive (and the fastest and arguably most prestigious) series that we have here, the TRS, was dumped out of Tier 1 by MNZ/TMC (choose between either)? The only other decent series in Tier 1 (apart from the NZV8's), the GT3's (and I do apologise to Formula Ford, which is an important series but not always visually stimulating) is now no more, so where does that leave us? We had dealings with TMC when we were peripherally involved with the V8's, and I have to say not only were they difficult to deal with but they ignored the good efforts put in by us to try and increase spectator interest in the sport. It's all far too much of a closed shop in there, too many people in their own little closed club wanting to push their own agendas. Little wonder that so many good people have got fed up and pulled the pin! I really do feel sorry for the remaining good people on VEEGA, who are stuck working with TMC and their small blinkered vision.

There's my rant for the day!

[on_to_it]

Goat Boy - A lot of what you say, I believe, is pretty much on the money. But I think you miss the point with some of the support classes. You can't fill a days program with fast, loud cars - there are not enough of them. So you need support classes to fill the day, and why should those classes be excluded anyway. They have National Championships to compete in too.

Also, the young guns coming out of karts need to start somewhere, and for many that was always Formula Ford. But you need to know what you are doing with them to run at the front, regardless of the drivers talent, or you pay someone else to run it. Unless those fathers have very deep pockets, these kids need to attract sponsors to help with the bills, and most sponsors want quality TV coverage that airs at the right time, that people will actually watch. They want Hot Laps and decent crowds. That means Tier 1.

Some of these youngsters will become future NZV8 stars and maybe go even further. A few of them are bloody outstanding. But they can't just start in that class and expect to be competitive, they have to do their time. So think about it: without support classes and new blood coming through, the sport will run out of cars, drivers and sponsors.

[FraserGT]

"the TRS, was dumped out of Tier 1 by MNZ/TMC"

With the current economic climate in New Zealand and the reduced number of competitors that are coming through the junior classes TRS has to look at who their "customers" are.

Toyota committed to Motorsport New Zealand for 10 years. They have run 7 of those 10 years already.

Toyota NZ and Toyota Racing Management did a great job attracting overseas competitors for the last season.

For this season TRS is running 5 rounds over 5 weekends in a row to attract more overseas competitors. Because of this there are two rounds which are not part of the "Tier 1" series. This is what TRS negotiated with TMC in the interests of Toyota being able to supply their customers what they wanted. TRS was not dumped by MNZ/TMC.

TRS are still at three rounds of the Tier 1 Summer Series, including the NZGP and Manfeild in February.

[Axeman444]

Originally Posted by on_to_it

Goat Boy - A lot of what you say, I believe, is pretty much on the money. But I think you miss the point with some of the support classes. You can't fill a days program with fast, loud cars - there are not enough of them. So you need support classes to fill the day, and why should those classes be excluded anyway. They have National Championships to compete in too.

Also, the young guns coming out of karts need to start somewhere, and for many that was always Formula Ford. But you need to know what you are doing with them to run at the front, regardless of the drivers talent, or you pay someone else to run it. Unless those fathers have very deep pockets, these kids need to attract sponsors to help with the bills, and most sponsors want quality TV coverage that airs at the right time, that people will actually watch. They want Hot Laps and decent crowds. That means Tier 1.

Some of these youngsters will become future NZV8 stars and maybe go even further. A few of them are bloody outstanding. But they can't just start in that class and expect to be competitive, they have to do their time. So think about it: without support classes and new blood coming through, the sport will run out of cars, drivers and sponsors.

OTI, i am far removed from what is happening on your side of the pond, but from what i have read on here, with the removal of the TRS, goes against every good point you raise above.

The TRS, along with the V8's and Porsches, got weekly updates in the motorsport media over here (when there was a round the preceeding weekend). In fact i believe the TRS was considered above the others, especially as a breeding ground, and many Australian observers proclaimed the benefits of having something similar here to replace the flagging F3 competition.

So if it was this good, and helped develop the current breed of NZ drivers in Europe and the US, as well as a few drivers in the tin tops here, why was it culled?

EDIT: maybe FraserGT's response answers my query...

[Goat Boy]

Originally Posted by on_to_it

Goat Boy - A lot of what you say, I believe, is pretty much on the money. But I think you miss the point with some of the support classes. You can't fill a days program with fast, loud cars - there are not enough of them. So you need support classes to fill the day, and why should those classes be excluded anyway. They have National Championships to compete in too.

Also, the young guns coming out of karts need to start somewhere, and for many that was always Formula Ford. But you need to know what you are doing with them to run at the front, regardless of the drivers talent, or you pay someone else to run it. Unless those fathers have very deep pockets, these kids need to attract sponsors to help with the bills, and most sponsors want quality TV coverage that airs at the right time, that people will actually watch. They want Hot Laps and decent crowds. That means Tier 1.

Some of these youngsters will become future NZV8 stars and maybe go even further. A few of them are bloody outstanding. But they can't just start in that class and expect to be competitive, they have to do their time. So think about it: without support classes and new blood coming through, the sport will run out of cars, drivers and sponsors.

I hear what you are saying, on_to_it, but the question remains why Tier 1 for this sort of thing? Why can't we have TRS, and GTRS, and Muscle Cars (entertainment value), Porsches (perhaps an open class) and yes Formula Ford but leave the Production Cars, Suzuki Swifts and Utes for Tier 2 events? Surely you should get to watch the fastest cars at the premier events?

Karters and other youngsters do need to go somewhere, but that is Formula Ford and TRS generally, until they find there is not a lot of opportunity for open wheel drives overseas unless you:

a) are very fast like Mitch Evans and/or

b) have big money behind you as well (like Scott Dixon did and even then he wasn't able to get an F1 drive apart from that one test)

But go along to a club meet or the NZ Festival of Motorsport and you will see very, very full grids and far more interesting racing than the classes I have been moaning about.

The NZV8's in their current form were great back in their day, but the grid numbers now are small compared to what they were (I remember 32 cars on the grid!!) and the support classes have been gradually whittled away because more and more of them were getting to be faster than the main attraction! Let's face it, when the NZV8's were only the third or fourth fastest cars on the day (behind TRS, GT3 and SuperGT as it was) then that's not a good look is it? Even if the racing was good, which it was.

As to watching it on TV, does anyone actually sit and watch these other classes on TV? Maybe the Utes because it's not apparent on TV just how slow they are, but I reckon for the others many of us would go and make a coffee or grab another beer...

[MS Fan]

Just to add to on_to_it comments, from a pure racing point of view it is not always the loud noisey classes that provide the best racing. Some of the support classes, some of the time, provide better racing than the high profile classes. It not just about outright speed.

[Goat Boy]

Originally Posted by FraserGT

"the TRS, was dumped out of Tier 1 by MNZ/TMC"

With the current economic climate in New Zealand and the reduced number of competitors that are coming through the junior classes TRS has to look at who their "customers" are.

Toyota committed to Motorsport New Zealand for 10 years. They have run 7 of those 10 years already.

Toyota NZ and Toyota Racing Management did a great job attracting overseas competitors for the last season.

For this season TRS is running 5 rounds over 5 weekends in a row to attract more overseas competitors. Because of this there are two rounds which are not part of the "Tier 1" series. This is what TRS negotiated with TMC in the interests of Toyota being able to supply their customers what they wanted. TRS was not dumped by MNZ/TMC.

TRS are still at three rounds of the Tier 1 Summer Series, including the NZGP and Manfeild in February.

Don't get me wrong here, I love the TRS, it's been the best thing to happen to NZ motorsport for a long time, and I am pleased to hear that the NZGP will be included in a Tier 1 event this season. But that hasn't been the case for the last couple of seasons, has it, much to my dismay.

I think these days (especially over here in NZ) it's really hard to get enough money to fnd a drive in one of these events, but that doesn't really explain why the club grids are so very well filled (example: BMW E30 has to be run in 2 separate races due to numbers!)

[FraserGT]

Originally Posted by Goat Boy

Don't get me wrong here, I love the TRS, it's been the best thing to happen to NZ motorsport for a long time, and I am pleased to hear that the NZGP will be included in a Tier 1 event this season. But that hasn't been the case for the last couple of seasons, has it, much to my dismay.

TRS is still very much a Tier 1 class. They have not competed at Pukekohe for the past few seasons because of the damage to the cars with the bumps. This then makes the round at Ruapuna a bit of an odd ball at the end of November before racing starts again in mid January.

TRS was at the Teretonga, Timaru, Manfeild and Taupo rounds as part of their 2011 season. They also had a stand alone round at Hampton Downs to make up the five rounds for the series.

Anyway, this is off topic. As much as TRS has shown success in growing their grids by getting quality overseas drivers during the northern hemisphere winter, this is supposed to be about V8STs.

[FraserGT]

Originally Posted by brown dog

thanks for this very informative post Straightline, I read it this morning, followed by MP's retort, then the subsequent deletion of both posts which I found rather surprising.

I guess anyone who is remotely interested/connected with the NZV8's would have been aware of some parts of the events that you posted, so interesting to read the full story as you saw it . Although there are probably more questions raised from your post than answers, such as who owned the IP for the new car being developed by VEEGA, which subsequently re emerged as the NZV8ST? Any many more, such as where did the funding for this new car development come from etc. etc. Maybe Mark can answer some of these?

Very good questions Conrad, and there are a lot of people with a lot more of a vested interest in the NZV8s then you or I would like them answered.

[Goat Boy]

True! Easy to wander off-topic

Anyone going to the Speedshow this weekend? I'll be interested to speak to both camps!

[MacrosNZ]

Originally Posted by Goat Boy

Anyone going to the Speedshow this weekend? I'll be interested to speak to both camps!

I'll be there on Saturday on the stand for the University of Auckland's FSAE team. Come and say hi.