LMP1 indipendants to run GT1 6.0 V12 production engines?

[DanJR1]

Porsche produced 1270 Carrera Gt's. thats got a nice v10 with a very nice background. just a thought.........................

[skycafe]

Originally Posted by DanJR1

Porsche produced 1270 Carrera Gt's. thats got a nice v10 with a very nice background. just a thought.........................

That was the engine basically that was meant for the stillborn P1 car tested in 99 or 00, wasn't it?

[broadrun96]

Originally Posted by JAG

It's also basically the same engine in the Enzo and 612.

and now the 599 as well.

[skycafe]

Originally Posted by knighty

ok, so we are concerned about cost and weight:

Cost - last year, an LMP team owner told me directly on the phone that he was paying Judd £250,000 for a seasons engines for a single car......thats a lot of money, and could easily finance the development of an independant engine programme, and if a few teams clubbed together, it would be even cheaper.

Weight - I read in race car engineering that the Corvette LS7 GT1 Engine built by Katech weighs 130Kg, and the Aston is not far off either......a Judd is about the same wiight......as for a production based engine being 100Kg over weight is just plain wide of the mark.......in short, all the LMP1 engine weights are very comparable, either bespoke race units or production based. I think you could say within a 30Kg tolerance

I was not referring to Charouz being an independant, far from it, I was speculating about other teams spotting a performance loophole and exploiting it.

and yes, as per my original post above, the Lola coupe is a flyer for sure, I'm certainly not debating that.

As for the LS7 being a rusty push-rod.....dont make me split my sides laughing - its the most impressive engine programme I have ever seen, as detailed in race engine magazine, its even semi stressed in the Corvette, so woul install well into an LMP1...... the engine is one of the main reasons they whipped Aston

Knighty, curious, does the Aston or something like the Elan have more torque potential then something like the Judd? Is potential due only to large capacity, or inherenty to the design?

[AU N EGL]

the Corvette LS7.r has ~ 640 lb ft or torque @ 4600 rpm.

Yes it is a 7 l and yes it is with the air reistrictors in place

and the AM DBRS9 has
~ Maximum torque: 620 Nm (457 lb. ft)

[AU N EGL]

and the Judd has ~ Torque: 627 lb-ft @ 4000-5000 rpm

[ThePenguin]

Originally Posted by skycafe

That was the engine basically that was meant for the stillborn P1 car tested in 99 or 00, wasn't it?

The P1 was tested in 00, and its engine was based off the canceled F1 engine program from the early 90s.

[knighty]

based on my calculations and info gleaned from my deep interest in this subject......the 6.0 Aston LMP1 motor will have just shy of 700bhp and 800Nm of torque........both figures are significantly more than a Judd 5.5 could provide.

The torque figure is high due to the capacity of 6.0 litres

The power figure is high due to the restrictor breaks handed out by the ACO to homologated GT1 engines with air con fitted.

While I completley agree the new Lola is a flyer, you also need to conceed that a fair chunk of that performance is due to the engine. This is why I would be interested to see the same unit installed into a car currently running a 5.5 Judd.......in my mind this was the ACO admitting the petrol rules were bent, and massivley favoured towards diesels.

[skycafe]

Originally Posted by knighty

based on my calculations and info gleaned from my deep interest in this subject......the 6.0 Aston LMP1 motor will have just shy of 700bhp and 800Nm of torque........both figures are significantly more than a Judd 5.5 could provide.

The torque figure is high due to the capacity of 6.0 litres

The power figure is high due to the restrictor breaks handed out by the ACO to homologated GT1 engines with air con fitted.

While I completley agree the new Lola is a flyer, you also need to conceed that a fair chunk of that performance is due to the engine. This is why I would be interested to see the same unit installed into a car currently running a 5.5 Judd.......in my mind this was the ACO admitting the petrol rules were bent, and massivley favoured towards diesels.

Theoretical figures are equivalent if you had a 6 litre Judd?

Also, it ACO came up with the production rule set because the petrol rules are bent and favor the diesels, they didn't actually do much/anything for the recent petrol P1 teams who have been committed to and developing Judd (or Zytek)engine chassis. They have essentially snubbed them, and those teams have been the core of the series....Pesca would be a prime example.

[alwayswatching]

Originally Posted by AU N EGL

and the Judd has ~ Torque: 627 lb-ft @ 4000-5000 rpm

I would think that is the BHP figure, not the torque. Can't see the Judd having anywhere near that mark.

[knighty]

Originally Posted by alwayswatching

I would think that is the BHP figure, not the torque. Can't see the Judd having anywhere near that mark.

totally agree.....no way has a judd 5.5 got 840Nm of torque.......the 7.0 corvette GT1 engine - yes.......but the judd - no way.

[SebringMG]

I would tend to agree based upon observation......

[old man]

I have just read through this interesting discussion and must ask who is going to field an LS7 engined Lola coupe then? P & M perhaps in ALMS if it would be allowed?

[HORNDAWG]

Originally Posted by knighty

totally agree.....no way has a judd 5.5 got 840Nm of torque.......the 7.0 corvette GT1 engine - yes.......but the judd - no way.

Closest I could find for torque on the GV5.5 would be around 500lbft. Which I gathered from these statements from Judd;

from GV5 specs.
445 lbft @ 6500 rpm ( 2 x 32,7mm Restr.)
465 lbft @ 7500 rpm (No Restr.)

and this quote;

"To that end, we are now working on a 5,5 litre version of the engine which we hope to have available to customers for testing prior to the start of the 2007 season. The increase in capacity will give us 10% more torque, even better driveability, which is particularly important for endurance racing, and improved fuel consumption over GV5."

So if they achieved their goals......

L.P.

[knighty]

agreed, about 500lb/ft for the 5.5 Judd......which is about 670Nm........which says to me the Judd 5.5 is not making the most of its torque potential.......it should be in the early to mid 700NM's.....I think most of this can be attributed to its short stroke and big-bore layout, but dont get me wrong, the 5.5 Judd is a very good motor endurance motor, a darn site better than the old 4.0 version.....a very well refined, reliable, powerful and fuel efficient motor now.........I'm sure the planned 6.0 AIM 90 degree version will be the dogs danglies

as for using 6.0 version of the LS7 GT1 V8 for a LMP1 and producing in the region of 700bhp for 24hrs......thet would be a very brave project, a step too far if I'm honest, but I'd be interested to see if someone like Katech could pull it off.....never say never!......

[AU N EGL]

Originally Posted by knighty

as for using 6.0 version of the LS7 GT1 V8 for a LMP1 and producing in the region of 700bhp for 24hrs......thet would be a very brave project, a step too far if I'm honest, but I'd be interested to see if someone like Katech could pull it off.....never say never!......

I would not be surprised. Remember IRC Ketech themselves theorized that if the LS7.r was built and tuned for Unrestricted use, the guessed that HP would be just south of 900bhp and the torque very close to that as well.

However, they did not want to test a $100,000 engine on that theory.

So a little time will tell what comes out of that little building.

[JAG]

Originally Posted by knighty

based on my calculations and info gleaned from my deep interest in this subject......the 6.0 Aston LMP1 motor will have just shy of 700bhp and 800Nm of torque........both figures are significantly more than a Judd 5.5 could provide.

The torque figure is high due to the capacity of 6.0 litres

The power figure is high due to the restrictor breaks handed out by the ACO to homologated GT1 engines with air con fitted.

While I completley agree the new Lola is a flyer, you also need to conceed that a fair chunk of that performance is due to the engine. This is why I would be interested to see the same unit installed into a car currently running a 5.5 Judd.......in my mind this was the ACO admitting the petrol rules were bent, and massivley favoured towards diesels.

Do you really think a 3% restrictor break makes a big differece.

The ALMS LMP2 cars recieved a 5% restrictor cut mid season (2007), so no off season development, and the perfromance difference was not noticeable.

The new Oreca Courage ran 1.34's, which is only half a second off the Lola, with a Judd engine, with much more chassis development to come.

The Aston Martin engine will undergo constant development, the customer Judd will be relatively untouched until the close season, and dependent on sales/leases, will recieve a little off season development. It's also an engine that has been around in various forms since the mid 90's.

[HORNDAWG]

Originally Posted by knighty

as for using 6.0 version of the LS7 GT1 V8 for a LMP1 and producing in the region of 700bhp for 24hrs......thet would be a very brave project, a step too far if I'm honest, but I'd be interested to see if someone like Katech could pull it off.....never say never!......

I don't think it out of the realm of possibility at all!
As to whether we will ever see one is another story. I am not yet convinced that GM wishes to go prototype racing with Corvette. I would love to see it, but it does not fit their model very well and money is a little tight. Maybe a renewed Cadillac project but I still think rather unlikely, though I hope to be disproven!

L.P.

[naughtymutt]

Originally Posted by old man

I have just read through this interesting discussion and must ask who is going to field an LS7 engined Lola coupe then? P & M perhaps in ALMS if it would be allowed?

Whilst I was watching the race on Sunday I couldnt help but think how great the lola would be with the LS7 (at 5am in Mulsanne corner on a sunday morning in june).

[knighty]

Originally Posted by JAG

Do you really think a 3% restrictor break makes a big differece.

The ALMS LMP2 cars recieved a 5% restrictor cut mid season (2007), so no off season development, and the perfromance difference was not noticeable.

The new Oreca Courage ran 1.34's, which is only half a second off the Lola, with a Judd engine, with much more chassis development to come.

The Aston Martin engine will undergo constant development, the customer Judd will be relatively untouched until the close season, and dependent on sales/leases, will recieve a little off season development. It's also an engine that has been around in various forms since the mid 90's.

yup, I'm quite certain the restrictor size that the Charouz-Aston is using is a VERY significant difference over a 5.5 Judd.....heres my calculation from the other Aston thread.......


"the data I have below is from race engine magazine when they interviewed Jason Hill about the Prodrive GT1 aston engine project.

2005 AM V12 with 2 x 31.2mm restrictors = 1530mm area = 585bhp

2006 AM V12 with 2 x 30.8mm restrictors = 1490mm area = 570bhp

2007 AM V12 with 2 x 30.7mm restrictors = 1480mm area = 570bhp

Divide the power by the restrictor area and I get an average ratio of 0.383……therefore for 2008 LMP1 engine using a homologated GT1 base motor…...

2 x 33.7 P1 homologated GT1 restrictors = 1784mm = 683bhp

2 x 34mm P1 homologated GT1 restrictors (Aircon) = 1816mm = 695bhp

So yes, I now agree!......as the LMP1 engine will be spinning faster that in its GT1 guise I'd also say it was good for just under 700bhp

If I was Mr Judd I'd be pretty peeved looking at those numbers :-( "

[JAG]

AER stated their engine had 650 bhp with last seasons restrictors, most teams go with Judd, so they can't be far off.

The punch of torque aside, I'm increasingly convinced the performance differences we see are 70%+ down to the chassis/package. How can we explain away the perfromance gap between the RS Spyder and the rest of the field. The newest P2 car, the Lola Coupe, is itself pulling out a gap between itself and the best of the rest.

Look at the Barcelon times, the 908's are way ahead, the R10 and Lola Aston Martin suprisingly close.

Is that because the 908 has a great engine and chassis, the R10 a great engine, but only adequate chassis, while the Lola Aston Martin has a chassis equal to the 908, but a slightly poorer engine?

[GTfour]

To see this fine effort of Lola with the Aston V12 in a semi factory car made me smile from ear to ear. How impressive it was to see this machine split the diesels in it's first race...

What I like most about these developments,is the fact that this'll mean we'll be treated to ever more top/factory P1's utilizing N/A engines in stead of turbo engines.
Let's face it,however beautifull the used technique in modern turbo motors,they allways sound a bit dull compared to N/A engines.
The last time a N/A car won Le Mans is near ten years ago(BMV V12 LMR '99) and with Aston Martin planning a full on factory attack at the great race,I must say I believe another N/A win is looming!

@naughtymutt,

"Whilst I was watching the race on Sunday I couldnt help but think how great the lola would be with the LS7 (at 5am in Mulsanne corner on a sunday morning in june)."

No how sweet that would be...

[chewymonster]

Well, I agree that the non factory makers of engines (Judd/AER) are not looking too good. Sure rules do play a factor as a pure race engine is getting whipped by a modified production engine (quite removed from production) but still.

Who says the R10 has an adequate chassis, sure it's on open race car, but then we would have to go to the rules again. That's why I don't think two different types (open/closed) is a good idea.

[Bob Riebe]

Originally Posted by knighty

agreed, about 500lb/ft for the 5.5 Judd......which is about 670Nm........which says to me the Judd 5.5 is not making the most of its torque potential.......it should be in the early to mid 700NM's.....I think most of this can be attributed to its short stroke and big-bore layout, but dont get me wrong, the 5.5 Judd is a very good motor endurance motor, a darn site better than the old 4.0 version.....a very well refined, reliable, powerful and fuel efficient motor now.........I'm sure the planned 6.0 AIM 90 degree version will be the dogs danglies

as for using 6.0 version of the LS7 GT1 V8 for a LMP1 and producing in the region of 700bhp for 24hrs......thet would be a very brave project, a step too far if I'm honest, but I'd be interested to see if someone like Katech could pull it off.....never say never!......

CHevy spent a huge amount of money for special small-port cylinder heads for the 427 GT1 engine; heads that no one else gets.
I doubt that Chevy wants to spend another small fortune for another set of special cylinder heads.
Bob

[knighty]

Originally Posted by JAG

AER stated their engine had 650 bhp with last seasons restrictors, most teams go with Judd, so they can't be far off.

The punch of torque aside, I'm increasingly convinced the performance differences we see are 70%+ down to the chassis/package. How can we explain away the perfromance gap between the RS Spyder and the rest of the field. The newest P2 car, the Lola Coupe, is itself pulling out a gap between itself and the best of the rest.

Look at the Barcelon times, the 908's are way ahead, the R10 and Lola Aston Martin suprisingly close.

Is that because the 908 has a great engine and chassis, the R10 a great engine, but only adequate chassis, while the Lola Aston Martin has a chassis equal to the 908, but a slightly poorer engine?

Jag - I'm not disagreeing with what you say about the Coupe chassis being quick, especially the Lola, they are a deffo significant steps forward........my comparison is the AM 6.0V12 to the 5.5 Judds.....not so much to the diesels.......yes I agree the Judd and AER units have circa 550-560bhp.......again last night I was watching the re-play of the barcelona race on Motors.......the Aston was breezing past Judd engined cars for fun.......which still makes me think the LMP1 Aston V12 6.0 has a 40-50bhp advantage over the 5.5 Judd engined cars.

then the commentators went on to share their "in-depth" engine knowledge and said "the Aston only had a 3% advantage in power, its not that much difference"......then I split my sides laughing