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Old 7 Oct 2016, 13:17 (Ref:3678123)   #26
crossfades
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Thats nothing compared to the 26 schanche did in the opel
So ... ?
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Old 7 Oct 2016, 13:47 (Ref:3678127)   #27
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The engines are loosely, very loosely based on a production unit and the chassis, if you can call them that are cut up to such a degree that what once was a 208 or DS3 is now almost a spaceframe. Plus tuning a YB Cossie was relatively cheap, tuning an engine that hardly anyone else uses like the Mini or Peugeot unit is going to cost a bunch as development costs have to be factored in.
How times have changed, YB builds are silly expensive now! (though, in relative terms, probably still cheaper than some of the alternatives) At least the new "custom" engine regulations do give privateers some freedom when it comes to engine selection.

I personally disagree with you with regards to the chassis, as the regulations do mandate retention of the original chassis and bodyshell. Of course there is a vast amount of work done to that standard structure (to the point where I wonder how much the shell actually contributes to the overall rigidity of the car), but it is still there.

There do seem to have been a lot of tweaks made to the regulations to level the playing field (or at least remove the grey areas). I know weight distribution was addressed a while ago and there were some changes concerning transmission tunnels a year or so ago too.

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Obviously this has always been the case to a point, but I think it has moved on
Yeah. I daresay measuring cost is difficult to gauge due to inflation, but the involvement of big names in the build of cars is always a sure sign the cost will go up!
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Old 7 Oct 2016, 15:01 (Ref:3678142)   #28
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Is someone using the Godfrey universial WRX engine?


BTW this tech talk is one of the great things of RX.
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Old 7 Oct 2016, 15:05 (Ref:3678143)   #29
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BTW this tech talk is one of the great things of RX.
Yep, I wish there was more technical talk and information available concerning the Supercars!
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Old 7 Oct 2016, 15:13 (Ref:3678144)   #30
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Okay here's a list from the WRX website:

Peugeot Hansen - Oreca
Olsbergs - Mountune
World RX Team Austria - Pipo
Volkswagen RX Sweden - Trollspeed
EKS - Audi (I assume this is just the brand, not tuner)
All-Inkl.com Motorsport - Special Motorsport (this company is unknown to me)
Hoonigan - Ford Performance & M-Sport

Source: http://www.fiaworldrallycross.com/teams
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Old 7 Oct 2016, 15:35 (Ref:3678147)   #31
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All-Inkl.com Motorsport - Special Motorsport (this company is unknown to me)
Nothing on Google, is there? I believe All-Inkl were using Godfrey engines last year so they must have changed.

M-Sport were Pipo last year, guess they learned from those and then moved the engine development in house! Solberg is still using Pipo, isn't he?

Larsson used Trollspeed in 2015 and the Albatec cars were indicated as being Oreca powered in 2014. Don't know if either of those have changed suppliers.
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Old 7 Oct 2016, 15:50 (Ref:3678156)   #32
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Nothing on Google, is there? I believe All-Inkl were using Godfrey engines last year so they must have changed.
Maybe with special motorsport they just mean "special engine developed for motorsport"

Solberg Pipo.
Albatec Oreca.

Last edited by FIRE; 7 Oct 2016 at 15:56.
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Old 7 Oct 2016, 19:50 (Ref:3678223)   #33
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Yep, I wish there was more technical talk and information available concerning the Supercars!


Yeah me too! Especially since it's hard to have a look at the engines these days. Love that stuff like Race Car Engineering and so. Would still love to know about the base engines being used. Could the EKS Audi have a 20VT engine based around the old Skoda WRC engines, manifold looks a bit like it.

Also would like to know more about those American Beetles which apparently use 1.6 engines as Andretti made a deal with Trollspeed (or was it Marklund?) about technology, which seems odd since no one uses a 1.6 VW engine.

Interesting too see that Hedstrom said the engine in his new Polo was quite a bit stronger than his old Jernberg Skoda, although using the same block, so either power has gone up or his old one was a bit tired (I guess both as tuners tend to put updates during an overhaul)...
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Old 9 Oct 2016, 13:41 (Ref:3678660)   #34
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Nothing on Google, is there? I believe All-Inkl were using Godfrey engines last year so they must have changed.

M-Sport were Pipo last year, guess they learned from those and then moved the engine development in house! Solberg is still using Pipo, isn't he?

Larsson used Trollspeed in 2015 and the Albatec cars were indicated as being Oreca powered in 2014. Don't know if either of those have changed suppliers.
Last year they used Trollspeed engines I believe. When they had the Skodas at least they utilized their engines. Larsson has an Trollspeed engine and they work quite closely, the team and Trollspeed also knows each other quite well and are situated very close to each other.

I have heard that Solberg has spent quite some money on his engine ...

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Also would like to know more about those American Beetles which apparently use 1.6 engines as Andretti made a deal with Trollspeed (or was it Marklund?) about technology, which seems odd since no one uses a 1.6 VW engine.
I think they changed to a 2.0 engine after just one season. The deal was with Marklund but they used Trollspeed engines, and still do. I have no idea what was included in the deal actually, very dull information there.
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Old 13 Oct 2016, 10:29 (Ref:3679722)   #35
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I have heard that Solberg has spent quite some money on his engine ...
I don't think anything from Pipo is cheap!

So what do we think: can Ekstrom seal the deal this weekend?
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Old 13 Oct 2016, 10:47 (Ref:3679724)   #36
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I don't think any of the cars in the final are cheap. Although I guess it's cheaper if you can use an engine which is used by others, like those VW engines (or before the Godfrey Cosworth engines) as the tuner can split the development costs.
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Old 13 Oct 2016, 11:25 (Ref:3679732)   #37
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This is part of the point I was raising about WRX becoming solely a money formula. Rather than being slightly innovative aswell.

You could argue that is has always been, and there is some truth in that.

But now it is SO SO specialised, specialist engine manuafacturers, transmissions, suspension, bodyshells. All that costs far more than is used to.

Don't you just long for someone to turn up with some sort of back yard special that blows everyone away and makes them all think about how they are doing things?

Last time that really happened was Solberg when he originally came over and introduced very soft suspension, rally style setups and a lot of people copied him.

But to compete now costs millions so you cant afford to innovate, you are under so much pressure to simply keep up, you can't develop. Your development is simply finding more from what you have.

Even in the bleak old days of the mid to late 90's you had Citroen running two cars one with hydro pneu suspension, another a different shape, Saab running various layouts, Ford running Cossie and Zetec, Schanche running weird transmissions, Hyundai running what is basically a 2016 style car with a tuner engine and bought in suspension, and Opel running a totally unique idea of a car.

Have we really advanced that much? We are certainly getting good crowds, semi decent tv and huge budgets, but the cars are all very similar.
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Old 13 Oct 2016, 21:07 (Ref:3679837)   #38
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About home brewed: check YT for Kelsey MC2, a 207 mixture of WRX, WRC, Prototype and Ice Racer...
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Old 14 Oct 2016, 08:04 (Ref:3679931)   #39
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About home brewed: check YT for Kelsey MC2, a 207 mixture of WRX, WRC, Prototype and Ice Racer...
That's the car built by the young chap in his garage, isn't it? Very impressive bit of home engineering, though I guess someone in the family has deep pockets!
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Old 14 Oct 2016, 09:09 (Ref:3679942)   #40
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Some of the cars use central diffs while others don't, thats the biggest difference I can think of.

As for Solberg, his setup from the start was more dumb than innovative. Throughout the years his cars has gotten less and less softer too. Remember Stecka tried a softer setup during his last season. Not very good results and when he switched back to a regular setup in Austria he got to his first final of the season and then also another final in Germany,
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Old 14 Oct 2016, 10:42 (Ref:3679952)   #41
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As for Solberg, his setup from the start was more dumb than innovative. Throughout the years his cars has gotten less and less softer too.
"Dumb" seems a bit harsh. I would think his initial setup was derived from his preferences in a rally car. He does seem to have firmed his car(s) up a bit, but his DS3 still looks much softer than anyone else.

I have been curious about the configuration of the rear end of Solberg's current DS3 for some time. I recall there being talk about a redesigned rear (I think early in 2014?) and the back end of the car looked lower to the ground, but the car still seems to pitch around a lot, so I wondered if he had raised the rear suspension turrets and/or opted for shorter shocks to bring the back of the car down.

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Stecka tried a softer setup during his last season. Not very good results and when he switched back to a regular setup in Austria he got to his first final of the season and then also another final in Germany
A couple of years ago I read (possibly on this forum?) that Hansen had tried copying the suspension settings from Solberg and trialing them: they were unable to post anywhere near the same lap times. Not sure of the accuracy of that statement but, even it's its nonsense, the "best" settings will only work if they suit the driver.

In my personal opinion there are only a couple of current drivers who look comfortable driving a Supercar with a soft setup.
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Old 14 Oct 2016, 10:57 (Ref:3679956)   #42
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Hvaal quite Solbergs team after a few rounds because he couldn't drive the thing, and they refused to change it much.
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Old 14 Oct 2016, 10:57 (Ref:3679957)   #43
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The front of the Solberg car seems to have far more travel than the rear. Sure it will have some sort of reason. Otherwise: if the Hansen cars were slower on a soft set up, can the Solberg car be possibly quicker on a harder set up?
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Old 14 Oct 2016, 11:21 (Ref:3679966)   #44
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Hvaal quite Solbergs team after a few rounds because he couldn't drive the thing, and they refused to change it much.
I heard the same story. I would like to have seen Liam Doran try a PSRX DS3, he is one of the few drivers I thought the car would suit.

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The front of the Solberg car seems to have far more travel than the rear. Sure it will have some sort of reason.
I was told (and this didn't come from an engineer, so I'm not taking it as gospel) that the mindset behind the soft suspension setup was to try to keep all four wheels in contact with the ground at all times. As the front of the car pitches up (especially with the amount of roll at the rear of the PSRX DS3), the front shocks will need more travel.

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Otherwise: if the Hansen cars were slower on a soft set up, can the Solberg car be possibly quicker on a harder set up?
With Solberg driving: I wouldn't think so. With Timmy at the wheel: maybe. The PSRX DS3 doesn't seem to be shy of power, especially at the top end. That engine configuration might not work as well if the car was to be driven cleanly.
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Old 14 Oct 2016, 12:05 (Ref:3679972)   #45
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I heard the same story. I would like to have seen Liam Doran try a PSRX DS3, he is one of the few drivers I thought the car would suit.

I was told (and this didn't come from an engineer, so I'm not taking it as gospel) that the mindset behind the soft suspension setup was to try to keep all four wheels in contact with the ground at all times. As the front of the car pitches up (especially with the amount of roll at the rear of the PSRX DS3), the front shocks will need more travel.

With Solberg driving: I wouldn't think so. With Timmy at the wheel: maybe. The PSRX DS3 doesn't seem to be shy of power, especially at the top end. That engine configuration might not work as well if the car was to be driven cleanly.
That is true, Hvaal was tired of the setup of the car. No one seems to be interested in buying Solberg's old car either.

I understand the point of having all wheels in contact with the ground but how necessary is it? Sure, some like softer suspension like Solberg but he is probably the best driver in the field also so if anyone can handle it, its him. However, he also wears up his tires more than anyone else.

Other drivers like Ekström, Kristoffersson, Loeb and the Hansen brothers drives very smooth with a harder setup, don't wear out their tires, keeps their wheel in contact with ground and are very fast. Even if Solberg had his worst round ever in Latvia, they are catching up to him.
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Old 14 Oct 2016, 13:06 (Ref:3679977)   #46
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If you looked closely at Lydden you could see the Fords were running, very, very soft suspension, and remember they are from exactly the same arena as Petter, WRC where their Reigers run insane travel and hugely soft setups, through the chicane you could see Bakkeruds car in particular lift its front wheels clearly off the ground, praps sorted more now.

They are new to this as Petter was so are learning. You don't need to run that soft, there are not the changes in terrain and bumps where you need it, if you look at Hansens, Larssons, Erikssons cars they are soft but mainly to encourage turn in on these garbage tyres they have to run and the diff settings they have to use to get the power down.
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Old 14 Oct 2016, 13:33 (Ref:3679985)   #47
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If you looked closely at Lydden you could see the Fords were running, very, very soft suspension, and remember they are from exactly the same arena as Petter, WRC where their Reigers run insane travel and hugely soft setups, through the chicane you could see Bakkeruds car in particular lift its front wheels clearly off the ground, praps sorted more now.
Yeah, the Focus was running very soft at Lydden. As you say Bakkerud was rolling a lot turning into the elbow and getting loads of air coming through the chicane. I thought the behavior of the car in the chicane was actually rather odd: the car was almost rearing up as it came off the crest of the chicane.

Given that M-Sport had some rallycross experience with the Fiesta I would think they must have thought there was some merit starting with a soft setup again. The Focus looked a lot stiffer at Loheac, but I wonder if that was a specific setup for that circuit.

As an aside I the OMSE Fiestas looked soft at Lydden as well. I was surprised as the team know the circuit, but the cars looked like the Team Austria cars did when they first appeared (i.e. bloody hard work to drive!).
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Old 14 Oct 2016, 13:47 (Ref:3679987)   #48
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I've heard from one of the non regular SuperCar drivers that the trend for softer settings also provides more grip which in return gives more boost due to earlier boost being build up (like in 5th gear). Interesting or what?!
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Old 15 Oct 2016, 16:27 (Ref:3680251)   #49
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I think perhaps the argument is starting from the wrong end. Solberg had an excellent career in rallycross and hillclimbs before he got the Ford factory contract. He was recognized as an "engineer driver" in that he could work closely with the engineers on development and setup of rally cars. This he brought with him into his private WRC team, arguably the most successful privateer team in WRC history. When he first got into the current FIA World RX championship (2013 i believe) he was fast but unreliable. After going to Pipo motors (and a rumored lively internal reorganization), he ran part of the 2014 and most of the 2015 seasons without a race engineer (i.e. filling that function himself) and has kept becoming faster each year.

Now, I propose two things that are going to happen if he is leading the design and setups himself:

1) The car becomes ever more customized for his personal preferences
2) The car becomes ever more difficult to drive for every other driver

So my argument is that the current fad for soft setups are based on the immense success Petter has had with his car - but he is driving a car designed exclusively for his personal preferences and driving style. The soft setup is only one of many aspects of his highly successful car concept. EKRX has four cars and two drivers - they are probably at least as technically advanced and powerful as Petter's single car, but they have to suit both drivers.

We see this in F1 all the time too - take any great driver and hire them as driver #2 in a team. Driver #1 gets first dibs on the car setups during design of next years car, and will very likely be faster.

Last edited by Silhuette; 15 Oct 2016 at 16:41.
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Old 15 Oct 2016, 17:12 (Ref:3680263)   #50
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I think perhaps the argument is starting from the wrong end. Solberg had an excellent career in rallycross and hillclimbs before he got the Ford factory contract. He was recognized as an "enginner driver" in that he could work closely with the engineers on development and setup of rally cars. This he brought with him into his private WRC team, arguably the most successful privateer team in WRC history. When he first got into the current FIA World RX championship (2013 i believe) he was fast but unreliable. After going to Pipo motors, he ran part of the 2014 and most of the 2015 seasons without a race engineer (i.e. filling that function himself) and has kept becoming faster each year.

Now, I propose two things that are going to happen if he is leading the design and setups himself:

1) The car becomes ever more customized for his personal preferences
2) The car becomes ever more difficult to drive for every other driver

So my argument is that the current fad for soft setups are based on the immense success Petter has had with his car - but he is driving a car designed exclusively for his personal preferences and driving style. The soft setup is only one of many aspects of his highly successful car concept. EKRX has four cars and two drivers - they are probably at least as technically advanced and powerful as Petter's single car, but they have to suit both drivers.

We see this in F1 all the time too - take any great driver and hire them as driver #2 in a team. Driver #1 gets first dibs on the car setups during design of next years car, and will very likely be faster.
Some good points there, he is an amazing driver and got quite the knowledge of cars.

Many believe though that he is too involved with the engineering part. For example when he won the WRC title in 2003, I know a guy that argued that he won the title just because he was #2 in the team, kind of opposite of your last point. Then he would just drive and could not have his own ideas, which would hinder him actually.

A reason that he did not have a engineer for some time can also be because he thinks that he knows best. He had worked with the second guy from Volkswagen Motorsport for a while who was in the WRC team and apparently that guy was not good enough for him.

When it comes to testing he wants perfection, which is fully understandable. However, he keeps changing his setup after tests, making them useless. He is a hard guy to work with to say the least.

Still though an amazing driver with incredible skills. The first time he ever raced crosskart in Höljes, he lead the race and took the joker on the first lap and was still first when exiting ...
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