Lites / LMP3

[Canada ALMS fan]

While I am not thrilled with the cosmetics, I am pleasantly surprised they chose an open chassis formula. Glad to see they are losing the dinosaur of an engine in the LMPC and going with something more relevant to today's world. Closed cockpit appears to be the future in Prototypes, I understand the safety reasons but still it is sad to lose some of the diversity once LMP1/2/3 all go coupe. Overall this is another positive step to a common global ruleset platform for sportscars to allow participation for teams on multiple series.

[Speed-King]

Glad to see they are losing the dinosaur of an engine in the LMPC and going with something more relevant to today's world.

I don't think they will!

Here's the tech sheet with the specs of the Sora/Pescarolo-car that's suppossedly for LMP3... Engine is given as LS3, though with only 360bhp.

[Maelochs]

It looks like (based on the Sora/Pescarolo 02) like the whole package will be smaller and lighter, so it would need less power. Why use an engine that big and that severely detuned (particular since the engine has been bulletproof in its 430-bhp trim) makes no sense to me.

[HORNDAWG]

Originally Posted by Maelochs

It looks like (based on the Sora/Pescarolo 02) like the whole package will be smaller and lighter, so it would need less power. Why use an engine that big and that severely detuned (particular since the engine has been bulletproof in its 430-bhp trim) makes no sense to me.

Because it needs to slot in at a certain performance level.








L.P.

[Maelochs]

I understand that the P3 needs to be quicker the GTE-Am and slower than P2. However, since the car might only need 360 bhp to do that (being lighter) I would think that it would make more sense to use a smaller, lighter engine which developed the necessary amount of power.

I would imagine there are any number of 350-bhp V6s out there which would be just as reliable and a lot lighter, and thus more efficient.

Whatever. We still don't know what the actual specs will be anyway.

I kind of hope this new class doesn't make it into TUSC in 2017. I like the fact that it allows different chassis, but I don't think the series needs four classes.

[deltawing]

I wonder on what planet a car like this is going to cost only 150K? ...

[Fogelhund]

Can we call these cars innovative and revolutionary? I mean a CN can weigh as low as 460kg. Think that low weight and smaller engines consuming less gas. Who would have ever thought of such a revolutionary idea?

[MitchZ06]

So you're saying you can have a car half the weight of a P1 and half the power but still do prototype style lap times? Send that Oreca or Pesca P3 to Le Mans and chuck the DeltaWing in the skip, proof that a car doesn't need to look like a penis to achieve low weight and fuel consumption.

[pedrocor]

Originally Posted by deltawing

I wonder on what planet a car like this is going to cost only 150K? ...

Actually, a CN car is around that price or even cheaper than that, with a spec Honda N/A 2.0l engine, around 225hp.

To lap faster than a GTE or GT3 they must have more power, if they put extra hard tires (maybe the old GP3 2.0 turbo 280hp Renault could fit well)

[Ken_T]

Check the times of the Wolf CN car. The one that runs in VdeV and SpeedEuroseries uses the Honda with a quated 255 HP. They also have a 3.0 V8 version that has turning within .5 seconds of the P2 pole when they ran at Spa a few weeks back.

http://www.wolfracingcars.com/notizi...of-LMP2-in-Spa

Sweet looking little carbon tubbed race car. I love the diversity of that class too. Wolf, Norma, Tatuus, Ligier, etc and so forth.

[deltawing]

Originally Posted by pedrocor

Actually, a CN car is around that price or even cheaper than that, with a spec Honda N/A 2.0l engine, around 225hp....

But LMP3 are not going to be CN cars. When everything is said and done and the wheel size grows up, brake size grows up, engine grows up, dimensions definitely grow up, plus the mandatory aero and mechanical restrictions in place (there will be some for sure!), then you are going to have a lot heavier and more expensive car. And we have not added the development costs, which someone somehow has to pay, too. Things just don't add up. 150K for a well sorted, capable of 24 hours competitive racing car sounds extremely optimistic.

[silente]

Originally Posted by pedrocor

Actually, a CN car is around that price or even cheaper than that, with a spec Honda N/A 2.0l engine, around 225hp.

To lap faster than a GTE or GT3 they must have more power, if they put extra hard tires (maybe the old GP3 2.0 turbo 280hp Renault could fit well)

As i said, they already do lap fasters than gt cars, still having only 250 hp c.a.

Of course, it would be better/easier to have some more power, also not to have a too big top speed difference with bigger LMP1 and LMP2 cars.

But CN cars today weight around 620-650 kg with driver and full equipment and they already do some 24 hours races, although they are definitely on the edge.

They would just need a bit more power and some really good team involved with them, but they already outperforms GT cars...

[Mike E]

Or the Ford 3.7l V6 as used in the Ginetta G55. Maybe Zytek could supply a batch. Ah, I do love the smell of unfounded speculation in the morning!

[somebodysb2]

Originally Posted by Ken_T

Check the times of the Wolf CN car. The one that runs in VdeV and SpeedEuroseries uses the Honda with a quated 255 HP. They also have a 3.0 V8 version that has turning within .5 seconds of the P2 pole when they ran at Spa a few weeks back.

http://www.wolfracingcars.com/notizi...of-LMP2-in-Spa

Sweet looking little carbon tubbed race car. I love the diversity of that class too. Wolf, Norma, Tatuus, Ligier, etc and so forth.

And that V8 turns out to be a Mugen unit lifted straight from an F3000..

Do they race in the V8 versions? or just the Honda ones?

[silente]

Originally Posted by somebodysb2

And that V8 turns out to be a Mugen unit lifted straight from an F3000..

Do they race in the V8 versions? or just the Honda ones?

where did you take this info from?

This is completely wrong, that engine is coming from completely another source.

They have already done a race with it, but not with the official team involved.

[wewantourdarbyback]

Originally Posted by deltawing

. Things just don't add up. 150K for a well sorted, capable of 24 hours competitive racing car sounds extremely optimistic.

Forgive me if I've misunderstood you, or the press release, but aren't the ACO saying these will race in ELMS/AsLMS as a lower class, not at the 24?

[Victor_RO]

Originally Posted by wewantourdarbyback

Forgive me if I've misunderstood you, or the press release, but aren't the ACO saying these will race in ELMS/AsLMS as a lower class, not at the 24?

And if it's slated to replace LMPC in Europe, then it's a no-go for the 24 Hours, a few cars may be allowed at the Test Day if teams and paying drivers want to get some experience and/or rookie laps in but that is as far as they'll go.

[deltawing]

Originally Posted by wewantourdarbyback

Forgive me if I've misunderstood you, or the press release, but aren't the ACO saying these will race in ELMS/AsLMS as a lower class, not at the 24?

You are right, the picture is not complete yet, let's wait for the story to develop then we can discuss it. I spoke too soon....

[somebodysb2]

Originally Posted by silente

where did you take this info from?

This is completely wrong, that engine is coming from completely another source.

They have already done a race with it, but not with the official team involved.

http://www.wolfracingcars.com/GB08S/TECHNICAL-SPECS
Mugen V8 MF308

Though I may be completely wrong..
http://www.radicalperformanceengines...Macroblock-v8/

[ger80]

Spec engine for LMP3 is wrong, they should go with a tight cost cap and it will be pseudo spec engine like now in LMP2 with the Nissan. At least give competition a chance ...

[Maelochs]

The way I see it, the spec engine isn’t a huge issue. It’s not like the possible engine suppliers would likely be anyone except major automakers. They aren’t hurting for the business. Also, it is easier keeping costs down by not allowing engine development.

I would imagine the cheapest way to go would be to contract with a single supplier for the entire run of engines—volume efficiency.

The chassis is a whole ‘nother issue. Most small chassis constructors are likely hurting for business because there simply aren’t that many prototype customers. Further, a lot of chassis and bodywork development can be done on computer, then laid up in say, fiberglass (much cheaper) for mind tunnel tests, and finally produced in carbon fiber when they are perfected.

If the costs are kept low, the class can have some real variety without the crippling costs of engine wars.

Further, no one really wants another spec class. Sure, the engines and tires will be spec, but the cars will look different and will be called different names. Maybe that doesn’t really mean much, but at the same time it is a lot better than an entire grid of Orecas.

[JoestForEver]

Originally Posted by Maelochs

The way I see it, the spec engine isn’t a huge issue. It’s not like the possible engine suppliers would likely be anyone except major automakers. They aren’t hurting for the business. Also, it is easier keeping costs down by not allowing engine development.

I would imagine the cheapest way to go would be to contract with a single supplier for the entire run of engines—volume efficiency.

The chassis is a whole ‘nother issue. Most small chassis constructors are likely hurting for business because there simply aren’t that many prototype customers. Further, a lot of chassis and bodywork development can be done on computer, then laid up in say, fiberglass (much cheaper) for mind tunnel tests, and finally produced in carbon fiber when they are perfected.

If the costs are kept low, the class can have some real variety without the crippling costs of engine wars.

Further, no one really wants another spec class. Sure, the engines and tires will be spec, but the cars will look different and will be called different names. Maybe that doesn’t really mean much, but at the same time it is a lot better than an entire grid of Orecas.

How about the Formula 3 regs? They have VW and Mercedes offering similar 2.0T engines and a open chassis. (Though everyone opt for a Dallara in the end, sad story)

[pedrocor]

Originally Posted by deltawing

But LMP3 are not going to be CN cars. When everything is said and done and the wheel size grows up, brake size grows up, engine grows up, dimensions definitely grow up, plus the mandatory aero and mechanical restrictions in place (there will be some for sure!), then you are going to have a lot heavier and more expensive car. And we have not added the development costs, which someone somehow has to pay, too. Things just don't add up. 150K for a well sorted, capable of 24 hours competitive racing car sounds extremely optimistic.

Well, not CN cars, alright, but they will be based on the current CN cars, as stated by ACO.
After all, you could have a CN2 2.0 litre 255hp ready to race on VdeV, or a 500hp CN4 lapping faster than an LMP2 at Spa which is pretty much the same car, apart from engine and gearbox.

But the main differences should be spec powertrain and gearbox, refueling systems (on VdeV cars are refueled as in a gas station), mandatory carbon chassis and some other safety features.

As I said, cars like the Wolf G08, Norma M20 FC, Osella PA21 have 500hp versions which are pretty much the same car.

[deltawing]

Pedro, it is all good! When I see such new (LMP3) cars at 150K, I will gladly take my hat off and bow

[Maelochs]

"How about the Formula 3 regs? They have VW and Mercedes offering similar 2.0T engines and a open chassis. (Though everyone opt for a Dallara in the end, sad story)"

But F3 is not desinged to be ultra-cheap (and €150,000 is Way cheap for a real race car.) If the series mandated a ridiculously low price for those engines, would Mercedes and VW decide to pull out because they would be losing money?

The benefit of a spec engine to the manufacturer is the efficiency of scale--and also the lack of engine competition, meaning the factory just has to build them, not develop them.

I am not saying I am opposed to open engine rules, just that I can see some rationalization as to why ACO decided to go with a spec powertrain.

If I had my way, and about a trillion spare dollars to fund endurance racing worldwide, I would completely eliminate the idea of spec anything--but in the real world where racing has to be a profitable business, I can see where both the efficiency of scale and simplicity of a single provider could help keep costs down.

As for chassis, if there was one chassis which was amazingly better than all the rest, everyone would use it---that's the way it always is. Shoot, that's what I would do.