Another gap jump incident GRC

[ebby]

This time David Binks in Las Vegas:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hPOyE_UE-TA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lzchTFXdL5c

When will the organisers learn?

[Minicross424]

Could not agree more.
So here we are, its October, were in Vegas and another driver is put in danger by putting on a race that does not really suit the cars, ring any bells from 2011?

[chunder]

Same old same old, dont watch it, dont click on it, they will soon go away, simple.

Its the drivers choice to do this rubbish, so we will likely have to wait until someone gets hurt, oh wait that has hapened already, twice! to a young kid and a WRC superstar!

[schanche]

Any news on David? All well I hope, Looks like a nasty bump! Omse cars are sturdy motors god knows they have been tested enough.

[Pozi]

Originally Posted by schanche

Any news on David? All well I hope, Looks like a nasty bump! Omse cars are sturdy motors god knows they have been tested enough.

According to his Twitter feed he is fine, just a little sore but is hoping the car can be fixed for tomorrow.

[Janneman]

Just look at teh pictures on ERC24.com how close Timur is for doing the same flip-over. A pitty it looks like they learned nothing from Heiki's accident.

[tbtstt]

Originally Posted by Janneman

Just look at teh pictures on ERC24.com how close Timur is for doing the same flip-over. A pitty it looks like they learned nothing from Heiki's accident.

Or Comrie-Picard. Or Keeney. Or Burton. Or Mancin...

[USRallycross]

David didn't carry enough speed and the back axle hit the lip of the landing side of the jump and flipped him over. The crash was almost a complete replica of ACP's at X Games.

Thankfully David got out of the car on his own and after being checked over was released from hospital. As soon as he got out of the car all he wanted to know was could the car be fixed in time for at least the Last Chance Qualifier.

He is keen to look at the telemetry because he was convinced he had the correct speed and David has been one of the best jumpers all year. I have watched all his jumps and nearly all have been perfect. The one thing to consider is that this jump is dirt and not the steel ramp that David has been used to. Grip/speed levels could have made the difference.

Not going to re-hash the whole jump. You either love it or loathe it and most people on here have made their views known - and some pretty insensitvely post Marcus' crash in LA (which is why I have been silent for so long).

David and Marcus are my friends and know that both want to race in the GRC again........

Mark

[chunder]

Always said to see such things, you forget people are involved at the time.

But that is EXACTLY my reason for being so anti.

But, whta is our voice compared to those involved, if they want to be stuntmen instead of racing drivers it's entirely their call.

[Hickey]

Originally Posted by USRallycross

Not going to re-hash the whole jump. You either love it or loathe it and most people on here have made their views known - and some pretty insensitvely post Marcus' crash in LA (which is why I have been silent for so long).

But the organisers haven't learnt. It beggars believe that there was a concrete block slightly sticking out on the inside of a 60/70 mph corner. Yes, Gronholm got it wrong, but the punishment didnt match the crime. These courses are so unsafe that they wouldn't pass a safety inspection for a friendly jog, let alone an FIA sanctioned rallycross event. And yet crash after crash, no one learns.

I know that you are involved heavily with the GRC. It must pain you to see these incidents and the bad press after each one. Why on earth isn't something done about it.

It's not a case of some people don't like jumps. It's the case that nearly all motorsport fans don't like to see cars written off and people's lives endangered by dreadful course management/design.

Unfortunately, the American fanbase loves to see a crash (which is why they cheer at NASCAR incidents) and this is why the jumps are still there.

I guess it's a culture thing and I guess that if the drivers still enter the events, then they don't care that much (though they are in it for money too). It's just sad to see these incidents (whether it's the driver's fault or not) and know that really, they needn't happen.

[Minicross424]

You do not need jumps in the GRC to make it exciting or fun.
Rallycross managed for years with out it.

[kennybrackfan]

GRC is a great product at the moment, and Rallycross in general is gaining a lot of momentum. The gap jumps might be dangerous, but for every driver who may step out of a car saying it is too dangerous, there are probably hundreds of others willing to take that seat if they had the chance.

Because all forms of racing have to justify themselves for some reason, aims of the organisers have to get more specific. Some championships opt for 'green', others 'new technology'. GRC opts for 'spectacular entertainment' and offers exactly that, big names and big action. It does raise the stakes for the drivers in order to satisfy all that is superficial, and to catch the eye of the casual fan - but it does it brilliantly.

Only genuine enthusiast would care that Group A rally cars needed only a few years to surpass Group B stage times. Group B is still 'known' as the golden age, and the cars are remembered fondly by people who never saw them. GRC is giving the majority what they want, and if it alienates the purists it still provides big ratings, ticket sales and merch sales. I'm sure more people watch the crash videos than the footage of Loeb cruising to the X-games gold...

Personally I enjoy watching GRC, but it's only because I don't kid myself about what I'm watching And I'm sure David Binks is racing there because he wants to be infront of the big audiences and rub shoulders with the stars. See it as an exhibition, like watching the Red Bull X-Fighters or something like that.

Just hope it piques interest in Rallycross in general - I was at Croft yesterday to watch some National level rallycross and apart from thin grids, it was good. Only TV will realistically attract more spectators and cars, and only spectacular will attract TV. You only have to look at the current state of the WRC to know that...

[daz2202]

Originally Posted by kennybrackfan

GRC is a great product at the moment, and Rallycross in general is gaining a lot of momentum. The gap jumps might be dangerous, but for every driver who may step out of a car saying it is too dangerous, there are probably hundreds of others willing to take that seat if they had the chance.

..

In complete agreement with this comment.

I agree its blimin dangerous, the tracks are thrown together just to get a quick race.

But... Offer me the chance to pack up work and drive a 550hp supercar around a dangerous track and my answer would be yes please where do i sign. (and who is paying !!!)

[chunder]

To be fair to a few comments on here GRC is not really a jump up for most, it might be in money terms but nothing else, Doran didnt stay in it for long did he for whatever reason, or Scott. Binks is there coz he was involved with Best Buy and Ford Sweden, no other reason, he had not achieved enough nationally to really go for those rides, apart from a sort of half ERC BRC season where he was successful, reason enough? I am not the judge of that.

TV is not always the answer, it only is if it is done properly and Toby Moody shouting into a microphone does not quantify as properly for me sorry.

Schanche, Gollop, Welch offering some insight maybe, Arthur maybe, a bit old school maybe but noone conveys the excitement better, and I am sure there are others that can.

WRC has been on tv for donkeys years and is only struggling coz the same bloke wins all the time that is the ONLY reason it has suffered, there is no show, no story.

If you want crashes to be the story then fair enough, but build the cars to take it and make the tracks wide and safe enough to take it.

My criticism with GRC has been their effort to make rallycross suit an audience that knows no better. Putting water down to make loose, no, jumps no, single file or not. Sliding through a barn, yes, having a yump yes, having a crossover yes, night racing yes, make them louder yes, mass autograph signing yes, individual stunt and gymkhana stuff yes, but incorportae into the show, dont try and incorporate it into rallycross.

[leonidas]

Originally Posted by kennybrackfan

The gap jumps might be dangerous, but for every driver who may step out of a car saying it is too dangerous, there are probably hundreds of others willing to take that seat if they had the chance.

Sadly this is the sort of thing that resulted in so many drivers being killed in F1 in the 60s and 70s and in Indycar in more recent years. There were always people prepared to do it despite the recklessness of organisers interested only in the 'show' (ie. dangerous crashes). Drivers sometimes have to be protected from themselves - for their good and for that of the sport.

Common sense and careful organisation have made rallycross one of the safest forms of motorsport. Its depressing to see that reputation being put at risk.

[Janneman]

Originally Posted by kennybrackfan

GRC is a great product at the moment, and Rallycross in general is gaining a lot of momentum. The gap jumps might be dangerous,

There you go... might be dangerous, no the jumps are dangerous.

It's the organisers decision to keep them and put lives at stake. For me it's only matter of time someone dies at such a jump.

Regards,
Jan

[chasing cars]

The one thing that IMG have said that im in full agreement with is that "rallycross doesnt need anything artificial like gap jumps, the racing is the show." If only the GRC would realize that then I think most of the bad publicity and critisism it recieves here would stop. Its not a case of loving it or loathing it, its about safety nothing else. The fact that it does nothing for the racing is GRCs choice, putting drivers lives at unneccesary risk is not.

Interestingly Ive read on another US based forum comments from spectators who have actually been to an event and their comments are pretty much the same as us europeans. To them the jump spoils the racing and once you have seen it taken a few times the so called wow factor is lost and there are only 2 ways the jump is taken, cleanly or end up in the back of an ambulance. Its only the non racing casual spectator who probably likes it and they probably dont give 2 hoots as to what happens to the car or driver.

[FIRE]

Apparently someone has to get really serious hurt or worse before they learn.
GRC are idiots. I don't understand why the involved drivers, teams and sponsors don't say no to the gap jump. Well maybe they are just idiots too.

[sashchris]

Mark
It's not a question of loving or loathing gap jumps, it's seeing them for what they are.
People take part in Motorsport knowing it can be dangerous and obviously accept that fact ok
But car builders have to make the cars as safe as they can , circuit designers have to make the tracks as safe as they can , organisers have to run events as safely as they can and scrutineers , clerks of courses , marshalls etc are all there to rightly ensure this is the case, so as a competitor whilst you accept the risks you know that as much as possible is done to reduce them.
A gap jump just simply goes against all of this, it is just saying yea racings already dangerous but hey we want to make it a bit more dangerous for you guys, its just wrong and that's how any rallycross fan will see it.

[USRallycross]

Always thought I was a rallycross fan but guess not. Thanks - maybe I should spend more time with our NASCAR team!

I am a purist and would prefer regular tracks but also know that those tracks wouldn't work over here. There aren't "anoraks" here who would appreciate the finer points of the sport. Pure racing like IndyCar, ALMS, etc are all in dire trouble. Sports like off-road trucks are successful.....

Plus ESPN wants action sports and right now the TV deal and the millions it brings is essential to the sport, the sponsors and the manufacturers. So we all make compromises.

I think I am far closer to the car build than you (forgive me if I am wrong) and they can sustain a crash like David's - hence he walked away. I think Liam's crash at Lydden last year was far worse and was on a pure rallycross track. Marcus says his Australia wreck was far worse and I have spent enough years rallying to know what a tree does to car. Now I know you will say ah yes, but GRC is custom built danger but most of my sane friends think I am more crazy to fly through the forests.

So, it is a choice and I guess some will race in the GRC and some will race with IMG. There shouldn't be stupid errors like the concrete post that got MG at X Games but the jumps are a calculated risk. David is desperate to get back in the car and I am not forcing him!

Mark

[leonidas]

Mark - I take the point that ESPN want gimmicky action sports but is this the way to build a sustainable future for rallycross?

Look at the two most successful motor sports in the world - F1 and NASCAR. Do these rely on gimmicks? NASCAR has run to essentially the same format since the 1970s. Minor things change but the big events are almost the same as forty years ago (Daytona, Southern 500, Firecracker etc). Same with F1 (Monaco, Spa, Silverstone, Monza etc). Top series focus on the quality of the racing and building a strong narrative around their top drivers and key events.

In contrast Indycar has been obsessed with gimmicks - it hasn't worked and arguably it cost Dan Wheldon his life.

Jumps will soon be seen for what they are - predictable stunts that add nothing to the core product of close racing. Where will that leave rallycross?

[Pozi]

GRC featuring jumps is part of the sport that everyone signs up to and a requirement to attract a mass following. Like it or not the drivers are prepared to take the risk and as said by others, if I had the opportunity to drive in a race I would jump (pardon the pun) at the chance safe in the knowledge that if it went wrong the cars are built strong enough to withstand it.

I have to agree the jump is a compromise to track safety but no worse than some of the jumps seen in a conventional rally or mountain roads with no run off, and if it goes wrong there drivers are potentially much further from medical assistance.

At the end of the day motorsport is dangerous, it even says that on a spectator ticket but I accept this and continue to attend races.

[rx-guru]

One thing should not be forgotten here: Those who jump could drop on a car that is driving trough the gap. The risk for the jumper becomes automatically a risk for him as well...

[Janneman]

Originally Posted by Pozi

GRC featuring jumps is part of the sport that everyone signs up to and a requirement to attract a mass following. Like it or not the drivers are prepared to take the risk and as said by others, if I had the opportunity to drive in a race I would jump (pardon the pun) at the chance safe in the knowledge that if it went wrong the cars are built strong enough to withstand it.

I have to agree the jump is a compromise to track safety but no worse than some of the jumps seen in a conventional rally or mountain roads with no run off, and if it goes wrong there drivers are potentially much further from medical assistance.

At the end of the day motorsport is dangerous, it even says that on a spectator ticket but I accept this and continue to attend races.

It's exactly the attitude they had in F1. That is untill the day Ratzenberg and Senna died.

Regards,
Jan

[Pozi]

Originally Posted by Janneman

It's exactly the attitude they had in F1. That is untill the day Ratzenberg and Senna died.

Regards,
Jan

The point you have missed though is that the racing cars still carried on being just as fast afterwards but the sport learnt from those tragic events and car safety development has come on leaps since that time.

It is a sad fact that there has been further deaths in open wheel racing since Imola but nobody is calling for a ban on that, why should the GRC jump which has so far only claimed a broken foot be condemned before being given a chance?