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Old 27 Jul 2015, 15:19 (Ref:3561687)   #1
midgetman
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HANS Devices and seat belts

Right, here it is from the horse's mouth. I've received a communication from Stand 21 and it includes the info below about what belts to use with a HANS device. Other FHRs are available and it may not apply to them!

NOTE: THE HANS DEVICES YOU CAN USE 3” OR 2” BELTS. THE GAP ON THE HANS DEVICE ACTUALLY FITS 2” BELT HOWEVER WE RECOMMEND USING 3” BELT. EVEN THOUGH IT WILL OVER THE AREA FOR THE BELT ON THE HANS DEVICES THEY ARE ACTUALLY BETTER AS IT KEEPS THE HANS DEVICE MORE SECURE AND IN PLACE AND BALANCES OUT THE WEIGHT MORE!

So there you have, manufacturer recommends 3" belts not the 2" that are on the market.

Hope this helps.

Max
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Old 12 Aug 2015, 08:02 (Ref:3565505)   #2
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Lifted from the latest Scrutineers' Bulletin. A quick reminder that HANS devices, tethers and posts are not multi-compatible and you need to check that your current device fits your latest helmet!

I suppose caveat emptor when buying second hand. There could soon be a flood of "cheap" HANS devices as helmets are renewed with "new" standard posts and fittings that don't match up with the existing standard. FHRs aren't lifed, but beware of the standard shown.

"Helmet and Frontal Head Restraint compatibility
The FIA set out in their Appendix L, III-3.3 the compatibility and permitted use of items approved to the FIA 8858-2002, 8858-201, 8860-2004 and 8860-2010 standards, and have provided the following handy reference to go along with this."

I've reproduced the diagram on www.racewear.co.uk/blogging.

Last edited by midgetman; 12 Aug 2015 at 08:08.
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Old 12 Aug 2015, 09:12 (Ref:3565516)   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by midgetman View Post
Lifted from the latest Scrutineers' Bulletin. A quick reminder that HANS devices, tethers and posts are not multi-compatible and you need to check that your current device fits your latest helmet!

I suppose caveat emptor when buying second hand. There could soon be a flood of "cheap" HANS devices as helmets are renewed with "new" standard posts and fittings that don't match up with the existing standard. FHRs aren't lifed, but beware of the standard shown.

"Helmet and Frontal Head Restraint compatibility
The FIA set out in their Appendix L, III-3.3 the compatibility and permitted use of items approved to the FIA 8858-2002, 8858-201, 8860-2004 and 8860-2010 standards, and have provided the following handy reference to go along with this."

I've reproduced the diagram on www.racewear.co.uk/blogging.
I'm not sure I'd buy a second hand HANS device! It's the same with helmets, belts and seats - unless it's from someone you know and trust you don't have any clue as to the history of it (which makes the whole '5 year life' thing a joke as well - but that's another debate). If it's a safety critical as we're being lead to believe (again - another debate) then a second hand one isn't worth the risk.

I need a new helmet and a HANS for next year - not sure which make of either to go for at the moment. Choice of helmet is limited by the need for an intercom (current amplifier is Peltor - so if we go with another system that'll need changing too ). I guess HANS are compatible with any helmet make (assuming they have the right posts attached)? Fortunately our belts - 2 years (4 events) into their 5 year life are HANS compatible.
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Old 12 Aug 2015, 16:06 (Ref:3565590)   #4
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Also, be sure that your shoulder belts are close enough (as viewed from above).

Sometimes, in older cars that were raced before HANS usage was common, the attachment points for the belts are mounted too far apart.

About 10 years ago I was in an endurance race at Lime Rock when a driver wearing a HANS device (they were quite new then) struck another car. His belts slipped off his shoulders and his head hit the steering wheel. He did not survive. Under local law, police did an investigation and found that part of the problem was that the shoulder belts were mounted too far apart from each other. The HANS device (which was the old style without the ridges on the shoulder blades), may have actually "helped" the belts slip off. A terrible tragedy.

Here's some good info on this from motorsport-tools .com
-------------------------------------
"The shoulder strap mounting points should be lower than the point at which the straps bear down on the HANS, such that the straps make an angle of 10 Degrees to the horizontal. The mounting points must be equally disposed about the user’s centre line so that straps spread outward slightly from the mountings and around the HANS. This helps to keep the straps firmly engaged with the HANS."

If the mounting points for the belts are far behind the seat, the belt mounts should be very close together. (Belts may touch or even be crossed over each other if necessary) 75-100mm distance between inner edges (shown) is typical.
If the mounting points are close to the seat, the width between the inner edges of the belts should be equal to or 25mm (1 inch) less than the width of the HANS Device.
HANS works with any 2" or 3" shoulder harness.
Mount shoulder belts of harness 25-50mm below the horizontal. ( MSA quote "10 Degrees to the horizontal" )

Last edited by Nial McCabe; 12 Aug 2015 at 16:11.
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Old 12 Aug 2015, 21:17 (Ref:3565644)   #5
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All of which reinforces why I stopped racing MG Midgets. At 6'2" I couldn't get the angle right on the belts. The series I ran in meant I had to use a full hardtop and I couldn't set them further back on the far deck.
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Old 13 Aug 2015, 12:58 (Ref:3565779)   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nial McCabe View Post
About 10 years ago I was in an endurance race at Lime Rock when a driver wearing a HANS device (they were quite new then) struck another car. His belts slipped off his shoulders and his head hit the steering wheel. He did not survive. Under local law, police did an investigation and found that part of the problem was that the shoulder belts were mounted too far apart from each other. The HANS device (which was the old style without the ridges on the shoulder blades), may have actually "helped" the belts slip off. A terrible tragedy.
1. I have been with HANS Performance Products for over 13 years and we receive accident reports from all over the world, whether race officials, sanctioning bodies, coroners or racers themselves. We have never heard of the above incident. I would appreciate any details or links you can provide.

2. Research has proven when shoulder belts are mounted too far apart your entire torso slips through the belts on impact. Whether you wear a head restraint or not this is critical safety information for mounting belts. In an impact the belts grip the HANS with about 10,000 lbs. of friction with the rubber on the legs. It cannot "help the belts slip off".

3. NASCAR maintains a database of impacts. In over 6,000 events they have never recorded a situation where the belts have come off. NASCAR events are usually high energy, with the car hitting multiple objects and/or flipping multiple times. If mounted correctly the belts do not move.

If you have any further question on HANS or cockpit safety please contact me directly. Thank you for the opportunity of posting.

Gary Milgrom
VP HANS Performance Products
gmilgrom (at) teamsimpson (dot) com
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Old 14 Aug 2015, 01:48 (Ref:3565928)   #7
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Gary:

I was simply a racer at the event. This was something I heard from other competitors later on (which is why I said "may" and not "did").

I appreciate your interest in getting the facts correct.

The incident I am talking about is ~HERE~.

At the time it was discussed among many racers in the northeast and I'm sort of surprised you do not know about it. It appears the Conn. St. Police were involved. Perhaps it would useful to see if they have a report available.

I would be very glad to hear that it had nothing to do with the HANS device.

I personally wear a HANS every time I race.

I was motivated to make my comments above because I have informally noticed that some race cars that were set up pre-HANS have shoulder belts that look as though they are mounted too far apart for proper usage with a HANS. This always bothers me and I'm sure you would not like it either. I have mentioned it to various race officials at times but I am just one guy.
Maybe some sort of campaign to research this or a poll by Simpson would be useful.
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Old 14 Aug 2015, 06:51 (Ref:3565949)   #8
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Speaking of belts...The same Scrutineers' Bulletin reminded us that belts should have 4 mounting points unless they are a lap and diagonal road car type.

Which brings me in to something else I'd like clarifying from the horse's mouth. ..Gary, do HANS devices work with a standard road car "safety belt"? It looks dangerous to me but there's a UK retailer claiming they still work.
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Old 14 Aug 2015, 11:59 (Ref:3565971)   #9
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Nial thank you for the update. I will look into this and let you know what I find.

Midgetman - the HANS has never been tested with OEM 3-point belts. The fact that it uses friction from the double shoulder belts indicates it may not provide much benefit. However there is one FHR that has been tested with 3-point belts and shown to provide a big improvement over no FHR. This is a specific model of the Simpson Hybrid. As you may know, these "backpack style" FHRs strap to the body to help locate the device (shoulder belts are also used). You can find this "Hybrid 3-Point Belt Approved" here: http://simpsonraceproducts.com/hybri...belt-approved/

NOTE: Simpson’s top concern is your safety. While on a racetrack for the BEST protection we suggest a Full Containment Cockpit System that includes a Full Containment Seat, Snell rated Helmet, FIA or SFI approved Frontal Head Restraint and a 7-point seatbelt harness system.

Thank you. GM
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Old 1 Feb 2016, 13:52 (Ref:3610533)   #10
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Well yesterday was our first event with our new helmets and HANS devices (we used our existing 3" belts as these are HANS compatible), a few observations:
  • Once you're out on a stage most of the time you don't notice it's there.
  • You can't check over your shoulder on merges to see if there's any traffic coming at you.
  • At time controls I can't see the marshals as well as without a HANS device as I can't turn my head far enough.
  • Clipping the helmet to the HANS and unclipping again is far easier when you're in the car than sat on the sofa at home trying it!
  • Getting the belts to sit on the HANS properly can be awkward but there was no issue with them slipping off the HANS
  • My shoulders are sore today - maybe I don't have enough padding!

All in all it wasn't as bad as I thought it would be but it does cause a couple of problems (more for me than my driver).
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