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Old 11 Jan 2017, 10:16 (Ref:3701783)   #226
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Originally Posted by godlameroso View Post
The mixed axial centrifugal compressor is very compact and efficient, and if they had a little more space to make it the size they want(could just be better intake packaging) it could deliver enough boost pressure. Their harvesting is already at a good level, the next step is implementing their version of TJI/CVCC or whatever they're doing, but Honda likes doing things their own way, so they could be doing something completely different.
No it is not....otherwise the rest of the field would be doing it, I design turbo-machinery and boosting system for a living, the efficiency has a direct relationship with turbine wheel diameter, and as Honda squashed it within the confines of the V6 engine, they by default drastically limited the OD of the turbine, I checked the theory with a colleague who has been designing turbomachinery for 40 years, an ex Rolls-Royce jet engine designer, now runs his own consultancy, and the flaw was mainly in the small turbine size and axial flow nature, all being limited by 125,000rpm, it might have worked with 200K or 300K rpm, but the rules do not allow that......and on Mclarens size I also believe they had a tiny and undersized KERS battery for "size-zero" reasons, so both mistakes compounded each other to make a real mess of the 2015 season

"Could" and "if" are big words......as the old saying goes: "if your auntie had 80ll0cks, she'd be your uncle"

.
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Old 11 Jan 2017, 17:29 (Ref:3701882)   #227
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No it is not....otherwise the rest of the field would be doing it, I design turbo-machinery and boosting system for a living, the efficiency has a direct relationship with turbine wheel diameter, and as Honda squashed it within the confines of the V6 engine, they by default drastically limited the OD of the turbine, I checked the theory with a colleague who has been designing turbomachinery for 40 years, an ex Rolls-Royce jet engine designer, now runs his own consultancy, and the flaw was mainly in the small turbine size and axial flow nature, all being limited by 125,000rpm, it might have worked with 200K or 300K rpm, but the rules do not allow that......and on Mclarens size I also believe they had a tiny and undersized KERS battery for "size-zero" reasons, so both mistakes compounded each other to make a real mess of the 2015 season

"Could" and "if" are big words......as the old saying goes: "if your auntie had 80ll0cks, she'd be your uncle"

.
The turbine was not really nested in the V, the compressor was. I did not know that about the McLaren battery.

Honda has a lot of experience with mixed flow compressors and I agree with you on the turbomachinery RPM in relation the MGU-H. The RPM restriction is for the MGU-H not the turbomachinery, the regulations allow you to use a fixed gear to either over or under drive the MGU-H. I agree their concept was wrong, the small compressor and turbine meant the MGU-H was under driven under harvesting, but overdriven during deployment. It worked fine for producing power but was complete garbage during harvesting.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UxVqWfQZeOQ

If you watch this video you can hear the compressor stalling on the straights, so in order to maintain power they had to give up harvesting via the MGU-H this left them sitting ducks as they ran out of electric energy. They had to rely on the MGU-K for harvesting which made them garbage under braking due to the increased reliance on harvesting. In other words the undersized compressor had a knock on effect.

I have full faith that for 2017 Honda can rectify the problem, and we'll see a much improved power unit, how much in relation to others is not known.

But I stand by my statement, a mixed flow compressor is very compact and efficient, it just wasn't in this instance, because of self imposed restrictions(ie. putting the turbomachine in the V)
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Old 16 Mar 2017, 09:44 (Ref:3718989)   #228
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Rumours suggesting McLaren and Honda partnership has reached a tipping point. The word is McLaren have given Honda a deadline. If Honda fail to meet that deadline, McLaren may terminate the partnership early.

I would not be surprised if the McLaren/Honda partnership ended at the conclusion of the 2017 season.
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Old 16 Mar 2017, 11:09 (Ref:3719012)   #229
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I KNEW McLaren would be sounding out Mercedes over a potential engine deal. I was speaking to someone here at my office about it literally last week. Make sense from McLaren's side...
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Old 16 Mar 2017, 11:14 (Ref:3719016)   #230
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Moneyseeker should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridMoneyseeker should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridMoneyseeker should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridMoneyseeker should be qualifying in the top 3 on the grid
The BIG problem McLaren have though is that Honda are also a major commercial partner to the team providing funding over and above the engine supply, so if McLren boot Honda into the long grass, they lose an engine and a backer. We don't see a long queue of sponsors wanting to join McLaren and even ZB has a tough job on his hands convincing a major brand to put 10's of millions into McLaren in it's current form and level of performance.

Really, there are too many McLaren eggs in the Honda basket - all of which would have been good eggs if the engine is good and the results were strong, as it is currently they are potentially bad eggs...

I am just putting it out there, McLaren is a vastly different business now than it was in it's race and championship winning days, does it even need to be in F1 anymore and if the board take the pragmatic view that they can only win as a 'factory' team and they have tried the only option open to them to achieve this and it hasn't worked (so far), do they take the view that shareholders via the main Mclaren group don't want to support the F1 team and look at other avenues? Would McLaren be better off in FE and Le Mans to support and promote the various arms of it's operation.
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Old 16 Mar 2017, 12:25 (Ref:3719039)   #231
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BSchneiderFan should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridBSchneiderFan should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridBSchneiderFan should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridBSchneiderFan should be qualifying in the top 3 on the grid
I don't necessarily buy into the logic that a "customer" team can't win races and titles. Brawn was a customer team, as was/is Red Bull. McLaren would have to produce a better chassis than Mercedes, but they should have the resources and the experience for that to be at least possible.
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Old 16 Mar 2017, 15:30 (Ref:3719106)   #232
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Would McLaren get the latest and best engines?
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Old 16 Mar 2017, 15:40 (Ref:3719108)   #233
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Do Williams and Force India? I honestly don't know.
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Old 16 Mar 2017, 16:04 (Ref:3719111)   #234
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Do Williams and Force India? I honestly don't know.
No they would not, as they would otherwise pose a threat to the factory team. Only manor got the factory motors as they were a nice place to valitate changes to the works engines without being overtaken by it. A few years back Toto openly admitted the customer engines were not at the factory levels of performance. Ferrari have the same attitude, they are not in the F1 business to het beaten by their own engines, simple as that.

Personally if i was Zak Brown i would find an automotive backer and get Ilmor to build them an F1 engine for 2018, as they will never be allowed to win races with a customer motor. Perhaps someone like Jaguar LandRover could be tempted, it would be a great 3-way partnership.
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Old 16 Mar 2017, 16:17 (Ref:3719117)   #235
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Would McLaren get the latest and best engines?
Williams and FI got the current engine spec at the beginning of last year (so same as the Merc factory team). cant see why it would be different this year or for a new team in the future.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/122882

as for updates over the course of the year...once they have been proven to work on the factory team and they can build enough new units i would imagine they then filter down to the Williams and FI supply depending on where they are with their own engine allotments, usage requirements, and terms of their respective supply deals (which may give the impression of unequal treatment).
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Old 16 Mar 2017, 17:09 (Ref:3719140)   #236
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I am just putting it out there, McLaren is a vastly different business now than it was in it's race and championship winning days, does it even need to be in F1 anymore and if the board take the pragmatic view that they can only win as a 'factory' team and they have tried the only option open to them to achieve this and it hasn't worked (so far), do they take the view that shareholders via the main Mclaren group don't want to support the F1 team and look at other avenues? Would McLaren be better off in FE and Le Mans to support and promote the various arms of it's operation.
interesting thought to put out there!

i want to say Ron was a big believer in the need to have exclusive factory support in order to win...would be a tad ironic if the board that ousted him have a similar belief.

if Mclaren take Liberty up on its offer to buy into F1 (an offer which has an expiry date) then that would signal their commitment to the sport beyond 2020...a lot of optimism about the new financial deal that Liberty are willing to make post 2020 so its difficult to imagine they will think about something other than F1 until they hear that offer (and whatever possible lump sum incentive payment they might be able to negotiate for themselves).

just speculation on my part, but they can always follow the Williams approach and work with a far more modest budget.
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Old 16 Mar 2017, 17:18 (Ref:3719141)   #237
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It is now written into the rules that customer teams must be offered the same specification PUs as the factory outfits; however, the customer teams are not obliged to accept the latest spec units. Hence you have the case with Sauber running a year old spec unit, and, was it last year?, Red Bull choosing to not take updated PUs in the USA and Mexico.
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Old 16 Mar 2017, 18:03 (Ref:3719155)   #238
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My assumption that the reports of McLaren overtures to Mercedes are...

1. Very real "Plan B" contingency planning. They would be fools to at least not looking into what it might take given the potential for a really bad 2017 season.

2. Public pressure on Honda.

Regarding funding, while Honda may provide a lot of money to McLaren, if all you can do is watch your cars stop on track, you really aren't racing, so there isn't much to lose. Regarding Alonso being paid for via Honda, if Alonso has an escape clause and pulled the eject handle, then that also validates the idea of going elsewhere.

I expect McLaren has little choice but to give Honda a handful of races to make progress. And if they are trending in the right direction, then it just will make any decision making for McLaren harder. I guess it just depends upon how fast they make progress.

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Old 16 Mar 2017, 20:15 (Ref:3719192)   #239
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Alonso will be retiring within a couple of years anyway. If getting rid of Honda means losing Alonso, I'd take it.
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Old 16 Mar 2017, 20:50 (Ref:3719195)   #240
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a random thought more than anything else...

a few years ago, when Red Bull started talking about thinking about replacing Renault opinions were really divided as to whether or not it was right for their disagreement to be handled in such a public way with some supporting RB and others supporting Renault.

granted in this case Honda is looking to be doing much worse then Renault ever did so its reasonable that most, if not all, of the blame is going towards Honda.

but i do find myself wondering (perhaps in a conspiratorial mindset) how much of this public consensus is the result of Zak Brown's influence over the Motorsports Network of publications and their ability to shape news stories...perhaps in a way that is more favourable to Mclaren.
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