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Old 25 Jun 2008, 00:51 (Ref:2236920)   #16
MulsanneMike
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Originally Posted by mattcat
It's not just Pugeot that I am referring to. The Charouz Lola Aston and the Dome S102 outpaced the open cars right out of the gate. I am no aerodynamicist, but I would be highly inclined to believe that there is a big advantage in downforce created by the windscreen and top of a closed top car. Likewise, I would be inclined to believe that the design is inherently better in a straight line. Anyone with an advanced knowledge of aerodynamics feel free to correct me if I am wrong.
The cockpit is actually a source of lift. The benefits of a closed top car are somewhat esoteric. Best guess is that closed top cars have less drag than an open top car. As for downforce, might be a bit of a wash as the cockpit potentially blocks flow to the rear wing. I'm told closed top LMPs have a slightly better L/D in low downforce configurations. I would guess in high downforce configs they are about equal.
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Old 25 Jun 2008, 06:58 (Ref:2236993)   #17
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Originally Posted by mattcat
It's not just Pugeot that I am referring to. The Charouz Lola Aston and the Dome S102 outpaced the open cars right out of the gate. I am no aerodynamicist, but I would be highly inclined to believe that there is a big advantage in downforce created by the windscreen and top of a closed top car. Likewise, I would be inclined to believe that the design is inherently better in a straight line. Anyone with an advanced knowledge of aerodynamics feel free to correct me if I am wrong.
John Horsman puts it quite nicely in layman's terms in Racing in the Rain - here he points out that drag is a factor of frontal area (larger in a coupe) multiplied by aerodynamic efficiency (greater in a coupe) - so a coupe body should be very effective on a long straight such as the run to Mulsanne, however the comparative downforce figures for the coupe and open top Mirage M6s showed the open car to be considerably more effective in being pushed onto the track. It's all on p.300 if you're interested.

Now I appreciate these are lessons from 30 years ago, and I'm sure things have moved on considerably (I'm much more a historian than aerodynamacist!) but I imagine some of these principles will remain the same.
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Old 25 Jun 2008, 19:11 (Ref:2237493)   #18
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Originally Posted by CTD
Is it realistic that the new rules will demand Gt looking cars for P1?, because i don't think the top Prototype class should be shut down!
P1 is remaining, there will just be a P1 Evo variation for 'GT' like cars.

Think Mercedes CLR, that's the best guess so far.
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Old 25 Jun 2008, 19:30 (Ref:2237500)   #19
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Originally Posted by JAG
P1 is remaining, there will just be a P1 Evo variation for 'GT' like cars.

Think Mercedes CLR, that's the best guess so far.
Are you sure? the ACO mentioned staying with the four class structure

LMP1
LMP2
GT1
GT2

any new "evo' p1 cars would be in the LMP1 class, not a seperate Evo class IIRC

"-- The possibility of choosing between prototype closed and open prototype is maintained, but (because there is a but), the COA would like to have a real diversity, "the cars look different and not just by their design" says Daniel Poissenot. As a result, in collaboration with Gordon Murray, a new definition body will even days in 2010, with a wider cockpit, knowing that cars today are still permitted. This regulation will be unveiled in November.

"The current cars and the new car will be balanced," said Daniel Poissenot, and it brings several questions: between diesel engines, Essence "traditional competition," Essence "GT" Hybrid and the different bodies, LMP1 current and future LMP2010 , How to get a good equivalence? The mission promises to be complicated for a settlement that presents itself as the map: failing to agree on a settlement, we try to please everyone with adjustments (engine or bodywork)."

Last edited by AU N EGL; 25 Jun 2008 at 19:34.
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Old 25 Jun 2008, 19:58 (Ref:2237523)   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MulsanneMike
The cockpit is actually a source of lift. The benefits of a closed top car are somewhat esoteric. Best guess is that closed top cars have less drag than an open top car. As for downforce, might be a bit of a wash as the cockpit potentially blocks flow to the rear wing. I'm told closed top LMPs have a slightly better L/D in low downforce configurations. I would guess in high downforce configs they are about equal.
Quote:
Originally Posted by isynge
John Horsman puts it quite nicely in layman's terms in Racing in the Rain - here he points out that drag is a factor of frontal area (larger in a coupe) multiplied by aerodynamic efficiency (greater in a coupe) - so a coupe body should be very effective on a long straight such as the run to Mulsanne, however the comparative downforce figures for the coupe and open top Mirage M6s showed the open car to be considerably more effective in being pushed onto the track. It's all on p.300 if you're interested.

Now I appreciate these are lessons from 30 years ago, and I'm sure things have moved on considerably (I'm much more a historian than aerodynamacist!) but I imagine some of these principles will remain the same.
Hmmm...interesting. Thanks for the input guys.
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Old 25 Jun 2008, 20:10 (Ref:2237533)   #21
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Originally Posted by AU N EGL
Are you sure? the ACO mentioned staying with the four class structure

LMP1
LMP2
GT1
GT2

any new "evo' p1 cars would be in the LMP1 class, not a seperate Evo class IIRC

"-- The possibility of choosing between prototype closed and open prototype is maintained, but (because there is a but), the COA would like to have a real diversity, "the cars look different and not just by their design" says Daniel Poissenot. As a result, in collaboration with Gordon Murray, a new definition body will even days in 2010, with a wider cockpit, knowing that cars today are still permitted. This regulation will be unveiled in November.

"The current cars and the new car will be balanced," said Daniel Poissenot, and it brings several questions: between diesel engines, Essence "traditional competition," Essence "GT" Hybrid and the different bodies, LMP1 current and future LMP2010 , How to get a good equivalence? The mission promises to be complicated for a settlement that presents itself as the map: failing to agree on a settlement, we try to please everyone with adjustments (engine or bodywork)."
Theres a strong possibility that the ACO and FIA will decide on a single GT class (lets hope they do), having EVO (really think they should call it GTP) and P1 as seperate parallel classes, maintaining a 4 class system.
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Old 25 Jun 2008, 20:39 (Ref:2237557)   #22
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Originally Posted by johntt
Theres a strong possibility that the ACO and FIA will decide on a single GT class (lets hope they do), having EVO (really think they should call it GTP) and P1 as seperate parallel classes, maintaining a 4 class system.
By reading the OUTline there would be four classes.

LMP1 ( evo folded into this class)
LMP2

GT1
GT2

with the GT clasess based on engine size and HP.

The EVO or LMP2010 rules cars will be racing with the current LMP1 cars, not in their own class.
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Old 25 Jun 2008, 21:44 (Ref:2237607)   #23
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Originally Posted by MulsanneMike
The cockpit is actually a source of lift. The benefits of a closed top car are somewhat esoteric. Best guess is that closed top cars have less drag than an open top car. As for downforce, might be a bit of a wash as the cockpit potentially blocks flow to the rear wing. I'm told closed top LMPs have a slightly better L/D in low downforce configurations. I would guess in high downforce configs they are about equal.
Hi Mike!
That sounds just right... The current Spa track requires a rather high downforce setup, and that is where Audi was at the top along with Peugeot in qualifying (both Audi and Peugeot in the 1:58s), while at the very high speed-oriented Le Mans track Peugeot were 5 seconds faster than Audi in 2008.
And also looking back at the (approximately recent) history of Le Mans, it's quite obvious that neither closed or open tops necessarily had overall lap advantage because they were open or closed, but the coupes did reach higher top speeds (for example, Bentley in 2001 and 2002 as opposed to Audi or Toyota, Mercedes and Audi coupe vs. BMW and Audi R8R in '99) and the open tops had more corner speed. I guess the best example is that of the 1999 Audis, when the R8R went 8 seconds faster than the R8C over a qualifying lap, but, attention, while doing 335 km/h on the Mulsanne as opposed to 349 km/h () by the coupe!

Last edited by sssssssss; 25 Jun 2008 at 21:48.
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Old 25 Jun 2008, 21:46 (Ref:2237608)   #24
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Originally Posted by johntt
Theres a strong possibility that the ACO and FIA will decide on a single GT class (lets hope they do)
That might be a strong posibility especially if Audi decide to go to the GTs class at Le Mans with their R8 GT, because probably Audi wouldn't want to race in the smallest class (which the R8 would comply with at this time).
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Old 25 Jun 2008, 23:18 (Ref:2237658)   #25
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Originally Posted by sssssssss
That might be a strong posibility especially if Audi decide to go to the GTs class at Le Mans with their R8 GT, because probably Audi wouldn't want to race in the smallest class (which the R8 would comply with at this time).
Two rumours are being confused here.

There's a rumour of an R8 GT2 car, plus another rumour of an LMP1 Evo with R8 styling cues. I'd say it's 90% certain Audi will remain in LMP1, but they may see an opening to expand into GT2, who knows, longer term maybe with a diesel variation, it would seem the logical next step.

LMP1 Evo isn't a road car class, it's similar to LMP1 but, as far as we are aware, will have different dimensions for the bodywork, i.e wider cockpits. The theory goes this will allow manufactuers to produce full LMP1 prototypes, but with road car styling cues, which apparently appeals to Aston Martin and GM.

Other manufactuers may well stick with current LMP1 cars, who knows.

As for class structure, again who knows, right now I'd say:-

LMP1 (current and Evo cars)
LMP2
GT (single class based on GT2)

Last edited by JAG; 25 Jun 2008 at 23:25.
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Old 25 Jun 2008, 23:53 (Ref:2237669)   #26
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We simply don't know. Don't say "will" when you really mean "I think". Summaries of the press conference at planetlemans.com or endurance-info.com (anywhere else info about it?) does not say anything what happens after 2010.

Personally I think there won't be "Evo" class... it's just the name on the road map. Also personally I don't the like the idea of two totally different bodyworks styles, with same engines but different restrictors etc... leaves too much open and possibilities that the other option would be favoured. ACO has already enough balancing with diesel vs. petrol vs. hybrids...
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Old 26 Jun 2008, 10:46 (Ref:2237879)   #27
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Jag

sounds good, if not real close.
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Old 26 Jun 2008, 16:55 (Ref:2238155)   #28
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Originally Posted by JAG
Two rumours are being confused here.

There's a rumour of an R8 GT2 car, plus another rumour of an LMP1 Evo with R8 styling cues. I'd say it's 90% certain Audi will remain in LMP1, but they may see an opening to expand into GT2, who knows, longer term maybe with a diesel variation, it would seem the logical next step.

LMP1 Evo isn't a road car class, it's similar to LMP1 but, as far as we are aware, will have different dimensions for the bodywork, i.e wider cockpits. The theory goes this will allow manufactuers to produce full LMP1 prototypes, but with road car styling cues, which apparently appeals to Aston Martin and GM.

Other manufactuers may well stick with current LMP1 cars, who knows.

As for class structure, again who knows, right now I'd say:-

LMP1 (current and Evo cars)
LMP2
GT (single class based on GT2)
Hmm, I think you might find that the cockpits of all future cars will be wider as well as possibly the car itself as it was stated that 'Improved lateral protection for drivers will also be written in to the regs'.(?) That is why I truly wish there was a verbatum transcript of the conference posted, but alas nothing. I guess it will be all speculation until November, at least.



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Old 26 Jun 2008, 18:34 (Ref:2238219)   #29
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That just means they'll fit more single seater like head protection, in the DTM, the drivers are almost sat in their own little protective tub, the WRC are also introducing similar things.

Open cars are relatively wide, but it's the head protection/HANS that protects the driver.


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Old 26 Jun 2008, 19:45 (Ref:2238264)   #30
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Or so its thought by some. As to the reference about the HANS device, the closed car drivers utilize them as well ( DSC pic ). So what is the reference supposed to indicate? Once again those are all speculative ideas as there was nothing in what was released from the confrence to indicate that.
http://www.planetlemans.com/2008/06/...ss-conference/


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