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View Poll Results: Should FF1600 lap records set on Dunlop tyres be discounted?
Yes 10 31.25%
No 22 68.75%
Voters: 32. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 25 Jan 2012, 00:05 (Ref:3016542)   #16
diz
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CIRCUITS CHANGE OVER TIME

Don't forget to factor in circuit changes such as corner tightening that happen over the years. For this reason I would discount Jamie Spence at Mallory.
I recall that his Oulton International record was something like a 1m42.7s, or 1m43.7s and I feel sure that good as he was, he wasn't 5 seconds a lap more gooderer than the contemporary chargers.
And if it was set in 1992, wouldn't that have been on Dunlops?
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Old 25 Jan 2012, 00:20 (Ref:3016553)   #17
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I see my son Scott still has the lap records for the two longer circuit layouts at Anglesey. What was quite amazing about this was that we consider this to be his first proper race weekend. He'd actually done one warm up race at Mondello 3 weeks before really as a test as he'd done no testing & it was the first time he'd driven the car. He qualified 3rd there quite quickly dispatching Noel Dunne for 2nd and was bearing down on leader Neville Smythe when his clutch expired. We were dreaming of a remarkable debut up until then.

When we arrived at Anglesey he loved the place instantly. I seem to remember we had about 16 cars racing that weekend in the post-90 class with some good experienced drivers amongst them. Scott just missed pole by a whisker on the shorter coastal layout but stuck to Rory Butchers gearbox like glue for the whole race. There was hardly a fag paper between them and when Butcher made a slight error Scott was actually too close to take advantage of it. No doubt he grabbed the Fastest lap in Butchers slip stream.

On Sunday Scott took pole from Butcher on the International layout and led from lights to flag soaking up all the pressure and trying to back Butcher into 3rd place man David Grady. Eventually Butcher made a tiny error; Grady pounced causing Rory to defend and Scott put the hammer down to escape taking the win, fastest lap and lap record number two in as many days. Not bad for someone with the novice cross on making his UK race debut. Happy Days
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Old 25 Jan 2012, 02:37 (Ref:3016580)   #18
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I think the track at Mallory for cars has not changed at all bigger run offs but I think the track is the same as in the 60s I may be wrong but someone will put me wright if I am.
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Old 25 Jan 2012, 09:46 (Ref:3016675)   #19
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Don't forget to factor in circuit changes such as corner tightening that happen over the years. For this reason I would discount Jamie Spence at Mallory.
I recall that his Oulton International record was something like a 1m42.7s, or 1m43.7s and I feel sure that good as he was, he wasn't 5 seconds a lap more gooderer than the contemporary chargers.
And if it was set in 1992, wouldn't that have been on Dunlops?
As saddlebags says, the corner radii and the layout at Mallory haven't changed. Although Spence would've run on Dunlops, it was still to FF1600 Kent regs and thus, I believe, should stand as the FF1600 lap record. Every other circuit lap record has been set on ACB10's (or ACB9's) suggesting that the Avon's are a quicker tyre. Also, it's not like the factory at Melksham hasn't changed the compound over the years; it's swung around like a yo-yo.

Spence probably had a very special works engine in his Swift. Also, the reason he was so quick at Oulton Int. would be because he circulated on the pre-Knickerbrook Chicane version. That would explain the six seconds difference (as the modern cars have probably made up some of the deficit on other parts of the track).

Does anyone have anyone proof of P.Dempsey's 1m32 at Cadwell?
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Old 25 Jan 2012, 09:48 (Ref:3016676)   #20
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I see my son Scott still has the lap records for the two longer circuit layouts at Anglesey. What was quite amazing about this was that we consider this to be his first proper race weekend. He'd actually done one warm up race at Mondello 3 weeks before really as a test as he'd done no testing & it was the first time he'd driven the car. He qualified 3rd there quite quickly dispatching Noel Dunne for 2nd and was bearing down on leader Neville Smythe when his clutch expired. We were dreaming of a remarkable debut up until then.

When we arrived at Anglesey he loved the place instantly. I seem to remember we had about 16 cars racing that weekend in the post-90 class with some good experienced drivers amongst them. Scott just missed pole by a whisker on the shorter coastal layout but stuck to Rory Butchers gearbox like glue for the whole race. There was hardly a fag paper between them and when Butcher made a slight error Scott was actually too close to take advantage of it. No doubt he grabbed the Fastest lap in Butchers slip stream.

On Sunday Scott took pole from Butcher on the International layout and led from lights to flag soaking up all the pressure and trying to back Butcher into 3rd place man David Grady. Eventually Butcher made a tiny error; Grady pounced causing Rory to defend and Scott put the hammer down to escape taking the win, fastest lap and lap record number two in as many days. Not bad for someone with the novice cross on making his UK race debut. Happy Days
Dominic, that's a great story. I haven't been to Anglesey yet, lack of budget normal stops us from paying the island a visit. I hope that Scott finds somewhere to race this year, he's certainly been one of the quickest FF1600 in recent years and deserves a decent seat (whether in GTs or single seaters). Good luck.
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Old 25 Jan 2012, 10:40 (Ref:3016701)   #21
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Formula Ford 1600 Lap Records
CircuitDriverCarLap TimeDate
Anglesey CoastalScott MalvernRay GRS081m11.179s04/06/2009
Anglesey InternationalScott MalvernRay GRS081m33.028s05/06/2009
Brands Hatch IndyIvor McCulloughVan Diemen RF0049.964s17/10/2010
Brands Hatch GPPeter DempseySwift SC921m36.542s24/09/2005
Cadwell ParkPeter DempseySwift SC921m32.350s07/08/2005
Castle CombeJosh FisherMygale SJ031m10.511s24/03/2008
CroftNeil BoardmanVan Diemen RF911m29.590s24/09/2005
Croix-en-Ternois-   
Donington Park NationalJohn MurphyVan Diemen RF901m15.348s15/05/2011
Donington Park International-   
Kirkistown-   
KnockhillGraham CarrollVan Diemen RF9254.617s14/09/2008
Lydden-   
Mallory ParkJamie SpenceSwift SC9247.780s23/08/1992
Mondello Park InternationalScott MalvernRay GRS081m47.495s12/09/2009
Oulton Park FostersMark ChadwickVan Diemen RF041m04.570s31/03/2007
Oulton Park IslandJordan SkinnerRay GRK101m30.594s26/04/2010
Oulton Park InternationalGavin WillsVan Diemen RF001m47.327s11/10/2008
Pembrey-   
Rockingham ISSCCMark WilliamsReynard 92FF1m29.952s23/06/2007
Silverstone NationalNeville SmythRay GR071m02.305s04/11/2007
Silverstone Arena GPDavid WildLola T2002m21.901s15/05/2011
Snetterton 200Stuart KestenbaumVan Diemen RF791m22.522s07/05/2011
Snetterton 300Benn SimmsAlexis Mk142m07.274s12/06/2011
ThruxtonEd MooreVan Diemen RF001m22.955s28/06/2009

  • I'm still unsure about Thruxton. Did anyone go quicker in 2003(?) for the King of Kents race?
  • Diz, you were right about Cadwell. Peter Dempsey set a 32.3s back in 2005.
  • Can someone check the Oulton lap records. I think they are correct, but someone may have gone quicker a few years previous to 2006.
  • I know Crois isn't in the UK, but the HSCC and BARC sporadically visit, and with JEB's series going there this year it seems right to have it in the list. The fastest I have found is Dave Lowe in Classic at around 60.65s in 2003 but I'd imagine either Neil Fowler or Nelson Rowe went quicker during the 2006 HSCC meeting.

Does someone have Kirkistown's LR. I vaguely remember reading that either McCullough or McMullan broke it either this year or last year, but I could be making that up!
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Old 25 Jan 2012, 10:49 (Ref:3016702)   #22
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Being an old duffer - I seem to think Gareth Rees did a 1.31.8 around Cadwell in 1990? I remember pole for the Junior (can;t remember if it was SoT or P&O) round that year was either high 31s or low 32s - and I am pretty sure Warren took fastest lap with a low 32... The only reason I remember so well - is I was struggling to get out of the 1.34s!!

Its a LONG time ago - but I suspect that Cadwell is a bit quicker that it used to be / the Dunlops are a bit quicker than the Avons..

I will try and find an old programme to confirm.
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Old 25 Jan 2012, 10:54 (Ref:3016703)   #23
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Mr Barnett ,

There are some very intriguing stories that relate to that particular day at Mallory in 1992.
Foundation Racing , who were running Jan Magnussen that year , had an exclusive test day at Mallory preceding the event , and I have it on good authority that a time in the 46 second bracket was recorded on almost" down to the canvas" Dunlop's ! , as that time was never officially replicated again during the actual race meeting one has to question the lengths to which the regulations were adhered to on that particular day !
"Heroes of FF1600" on Facebook , I believe , has the actual timesheets from the raceday when the lap record was set , it makes interesting reading.
Quite a few people were sub 48 seconds that day , and strangely enough , there was a light drizzle descending when the lap record was set if I remember correctly !
Vis a Vis , the P.Dempsey 1m 32sec lap record at Cadwell , it was done , and bizarely again , it was very hot and humid that day , not far off 30deg C , hardly lap record conditions you would think !
Brian Linley , ex of Infiniti Motorsport was there that day , so he probably still has the timesheets as proof , you can get hold of him at Andy Meyrick Motorsport.
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Old 25 Jan 2012, 11:04 (Ref:3016708)   #24
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Mr Barnett ,

There are some very intriguing stories that relate to that particular day at Mallory in 1992.
Foundation Racing , who were running Jan Magnussen that year , had an exclusive test day at Mallory preceding the event , and I have it on good authority that a time in the 46 second bracket was recorded on almost" down to the canvas" Dunlop's ! , as that time was never officially replicated again during the actual race meeting one has to question the lengths to which the regulations were adhered to on that particular day !
"Heroes of FF1600" on Facebook , I believe , has the actual timesheets from the raceday when the lap record was set , it makes interesting reading.
Quite a few people were sub 48 seconds that day , and strangely enough , there was a light drizzle descending when the lap record was set if I remember correctly !
Vis a Vis , the P.Dempsey 1m 32sec lap record at Cadwell , it was done , and bizarely again , it was very hot and humid that day , not far off 30deg C , hardly lap record conditions you would think !
Brian Linley , ex of Infiniti Motorsport was there that day , so he probably still has the timesheets as proof , you can get hold of him at Andy Meyrick Motorsport.
Considering that no-one has ever got close to the Mallory lap record, Spence's lap always seemed very fast. My dad always said that at Mallory very scrubbed tyres worked best, but recent races have been won with laps of high to low 49s. Last March during our shakedown I did a 48.7s, but I wonder how much faster you can get one to go. Engines were often 'special' for British Championship runners, so you never know what was going on back in 1992 - the Magnussen test lap is insane!

I've got proof of Dempsey's Cadwell lap through SMART Timing, but if JNWRF01 can find a faster lap from the 90s then I'm inclined to have that as the lap record (in this list), even if the Dunlops are faster tyres - modern cars are certainly faster with the number of RF00-Onwards and Ray GR06-Onwards cars that are winning and setting LRs.
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Old 25 Jan 2012, 11:44 (Ref:3016725)   #25
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I've got proof of Dempsey's Cadwell lap through SMART Timing, but if JNWRF01 can find a faster lap from the 90s then I'm inclined to have that as the lap record (in this list), even if the Dunlops are faster tyres - modern cars are certainly faster with the number of RF00-Onwards and Ray GR06-Onwards cars that are winning and setting LRs.
I am 100% against allowing times set on Dunlops to stand. Maybe in an all time lap record list that is OK, but for a list of "current spec" records, you must limit it to Avons.

I'm also still not convinced that some circuits are exactly the same today as they were some years ago. Small changes like resurfacing, more severe / less severe kerbs, greater / lesser run offs must come into play.

As for Oulton Fosters. Raceday programmes have regulary shown the record as Mike Bennett in low 63s', but I recall that the works guys were in the 62s', or even 61s' - I stand to be corrected on this.

Last edited by diz; 25 Jan 2012 at 11:52. Reason: Smelling pistake
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Old 25 Jan 2012, 12:03 (Ref:3016733)   #26
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smelling pistakeI am 100% against allowing times set on Dunlops to stand. Maybe in an all time lap record list that is OK, but for a list of "current spec" records, you must limit it to Avons.

I'm also still not convinced that some circuits are exactly the same today as they were some years ago. Small changes like resurfacing, more severe / less severe kerbs, greater / lesser run offs must come into play.

As for Oulton Fosters. Raceday programmes have regulary shown the record as Mike Bennett in low 63s', but I recall that the works guys were in the 62s', or even 61s' - I stand to be corrected on this.
Personally, I think that the Dunlops are slower tyres. Therefore, allowing records set on them makes sense as those running Avons should theoretically be able to beat pre-'94 lap times. The biggest difference in Spence's lap at Mallory was probably the spec of his engine - I'd imagine that it was a bit special, just like Magnussen's Foundation Racing motor.

If you can find evidence of a faster Oulton Fosters lap then it will replace the Chadwick lap I currently have listed. My records only back to 2004, so it is likely that someone could have beaten this. Has the Fosters circuit changed dramatically at all?

If changes to kerbing immediately signifies that previous times are null and void then Brands Indy will have a new lap record during it's first race of 2012; the exit kerb at Druids has been widened. In my mind, kerbing changes, resurfacing etc. don't null and void lap records. Changing corners and circuit layouts do. Mallory Park has not changed since the 1960s. I'd imagine kerbs have been replaced, but on the whole they are the same size and shape as previous iterations.

Last edited by barnettracing; 25 Jan 2012 at 12:05. Reason: Grammatical Proofing.
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Old 25 Jan 2012, 12:31 (Ref:3016741)   #27
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Right, a poll has been added. 'Yes' or 'No' depending on whether you think the Mallory (and potentially Cadwell/Oulton Fosters) lap records should be discounted for being set on Dunlop tyres; despite there being no major circuit changes at the aforementioned circuits.

I shall also have a check through the Blue Book to see if the MSA give any guidance on lap record stipulations, as I don't believe that kerbing/run-off changes and resurfacing null and void previous lap records. Otherwise:
- Mallory doesn't have a lap record (thanks to its 2011 resurface) and lack of subsequent FF1600 racing at the circuit
- Silverstone's lap record will be set in 2010-onwards thanks to resurfacing and kerbing changes due to the Arena GP modifications
- Brands Indy and GP don't have lap records due to Druids changes over this winter (2011/2012).

Thoughts from everyone? At the end of the day, it is probably better for all the competitors to accept the current lap records, rather than let them be dictated by stipulations that some people may not agree with.
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Old 25 Jan 2012, 12:34 (Ref:3016742)   #28
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I've done a 1:11.0 and a 1:33.3 in testing on the Anglesey tracks

...new goal for this year .

Great thread. very interesting!
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Old 25 Jan 2012, 12:38 (Ref:3016745)   #29
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I've done a 1:11.0 and a 1:33.3 in testing on the Anglesey tracks

...new goal for this year .

Great thread. very interesting!
Exactly! Everyone has 'done' quick laps in testing, but thanks to the organising clubs neglecting to publish/keep records of lap records anymore we, the competitors, often don't know what the proverbial bar is. Breaking a lap record should be a major accomplishment but it is often hard to tell as we don't know!

JB
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Old 25 Jan 2012, 12:52 (Ref:3016749)   #30
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The fastest lap I ever did at Mallory was unofficial as it was a test day in Feb 04 , it was 47.8 on Avons , The fastest official lap I ever did was a pole time of 48.1 , also in 04, so the times set in 1992 were totally representative and therefore realistically achievable.
The times at Mallory have been all over the place for some time now , even with the new surface , there doesn't seem to be a definitive benchmark , I reckon anywhere from 1990 -2005/2006 were more a fair reflection timewise , to be quick at Mallory throughout that era you needed to be minimum of 48.5 and below , regardless of tyres (Dunlops were better in quite a few respects though , notably longevity !)
The lap records that were set , whenever they were set , on whatever tyres they were set should stand , forget all this current convoluted class structure , thats total ****** , the person who has set the quickest lap overall at any given circuit should be the one who has the privilege of holding the Lap Record , Period.
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