More trouble at Silverstone - again!

[Peter Mallett]

I'm in agreement. But, don't you think it's the way the sport has been promoted that has brought it to this?

[wolfhound]

Originally Posted by Peter Mallett

I'm in agreement. But, don't you think it's the way the sport has been promoted that has brought it to this?

What promotion?

[VIVA GT]

Originally Posted by Peter Mallett

I'm in agreement. But, don't you think it's the way the sport has been promoted that has brought it to this?

You could be right Peter. The decline maybe started here in the UK when The (soaraway) Sun started to promote Mansell Mania. If I recall correctly, that year there were many 'new' spectators who didn't seem to understand the racing and ended up invading the track on the slowing down lap without realising how dangerous it all was!
(Somewhat reminiscent of the Radio One Fun Day in the 1970's when ;oads of silly girls ran over the track actually during the races so they could get to their heroes, the Bay City Rollers!)

[chunder]

I think the vast majority of people who attend F1 races in the UK are fans, maybe not every session fans, but certainly fans.

Surely veryf ew people would pay that sort of money just to go and see?

A lot of the people described here are probably corporates, which may account for 20% of the crowd for all we know.

There were certainly a lot of those type of people there last time I went in the early 00's.

I think Liberty are making the right noises, I would think about attending if I thought I was getting good value.

Sadly right now, a poorly run main event, 2 identikit series and a one make series for very rich people and a few talents is not value, not even close.

Especially when you factor in the other costs. It is actually almost insane how much they charge.

But, we all know why.

[Peter Mallett]

Originally Posted by VIVA GT

You could be right Peter. The decline maybe started here in the UK when The (soaraway) Sun started to promote Mansell Mania. If I recall correctly, that year there were many 'new' spectators who didn't seem to understand the racing and ended up invading the track on the slowing down lap without realising how dangerous it all was!
(Somewhat reminiscent of the Radio One Fun Day in the 1970's when ;oads of silly girls ran over the track actually during the races so they could get to their heroes, the Bay City Rollers!)

Indeed, but those two years were a bit of a glitch. That said we had a good programme of races to watch and the crowds stayed for most of the event not just the main race.

My point was rather that the "show" revolves entirely around the Formula 1 race and anything else has by definition, to be inferior in terms of interest levels. See Chunder's post which I think sums up the current malaise.

The GP was part of a festival of racing covering (depending on the country) single seaters and saloons. Even historics, remember the Yeoman Credit Formula 1 series? The mix would differ from country to county which made visiting a foreign GP an experience.

All that has gone and we are down to a formulaic event that could be in any country. And we pay more for the privilege.

[VIVA GT]

Originally Posted by Peter Mallett

Indeed, but those two years were a bit of a glitch. That said we had a good programme of races to watch and the crowds stayed for most of the event not just the main race.

My point was rather that the "show" revolves entirely around the Formula 1 race and anything else has by definition, to be inferior in terms of interest levels. See Chunder's post which I think sums up the current malaise.

The GP was part of a festival of racing covering (depending on the country) single seaters and saloons. Even historics, remember the Yeoman Credit Formula 1 series? The mix would differ from country to county which made visiting a foreign GP an experience.

All that has gone and we are down to a formulaic event that could be in any country. And we pay more for the privilege.

Peter, I am right behind you (and Chunder) regarding the lack of 'show' nowadays.
From 1979 to 1986 I and a bunch of mates attended every British GP, camped at the circuit and absorbed the whole thing, form the F1 teams arriving (say) on Wednesday, unloading & setting up the garages. We watched the days of practicing (timed and untimed) which then culminated in a packed race day of untimed warm up for the F1 cars, F3 & sportscar races, often a celebrity race, air displays and finally after the Grand Prix, the historics & BTCC (which were often better races than the Grand Prix). We'd return to work on the Monday morning knackered, but with a smile on our faces!
From what I hear now, on race day there is very little action (on & off the track), you have to pay a fortune to get in and need to be there at the crack of dawn if you've not also (heavily) invested in a grandstand seat.
Something does need to change to give the humble spectator more value for money, plus, something else (education?) needs to be done to convert the casual/corporate spectator who has initially gone to the Grand Prix as a fully paid for 'jolly' into someone who now has an interest in Motor Racing in general, not just the glamour of Grand Prix.

[chunder]

The problem has been around for years and it is obvious.

Why on earth would you consider or even risk making changes when the damn thing either does or almost sells out every year.

You can ONLY blame the fans and the public for continuing to support this rather ridiculous event.

You cannot blame Silverstone or anyone else. Maybe FOM for the crazy hosting fees, but they do it to everyone else so why should Silverstone be any different. The power is on the peoples hands, yet they are contributing to the current abject situation and can only blame themselves

[Peter Mallett]

Originally Posted by chunder

You can ONLY blame the fans and the public for continuing to support this rather ridiculous event.

Indeed but then again we appear to be discussing the Sport and Formula 1 as part of the overall scheme. FOM, now Liberty Media just keep banging on about Formula 1 as if that is all that matters.

With an approach like that it is clear that the real motor racing fans will stay away. If only the powers that be would go back to a diverse festival style weekend where Formula 1 was the pinnacle event, then I think Silverstone and others would be less cash strapped. It's all about TV and as such that takes the fans away from the circuits because they can watch from the sofa. There's nothing else of note on the bill so why bother paying for it?

[Sodemo]

Silverstone will charge the maximum that they can whilst still maintaining a "full" event. I don't imagine there will be any reduction in the prices for the punter as why should Silverstone do anything about it? Its supply and demand. If people stopped going and refused to pay the prices then there would be an argument to reduce prices, but I cannot see that happening.

[chunder]

And that si why nothing will change

If people suddenly were expcted to pay 5 pounds minimum for a load of bread, we would start eating something else.

Or at least you hope we would.

AS I said before, F1 fans are not the brightest when it comes to actually realising what is value and what isn't.

[bella]

i think resurrecting the festival style weekends are a great idea but realistically, does silverstone have space for a bigger crowd and more facilities? or are we expecting them to not raise ticket prices, but fund aforementioned festival of motorsport using the same hosting fees/actual cost of hosting event/ticket price setup?

liberty are kinda suggesting more of a montreal, austin, indy 500 and monaco approach - get the entire city involved and set up for specific events and parties to offer the visitors and residents more encouragement to enjoy the entire weekend. i mean, in monaco most of the people partying don't actually see the race...

if you look at the races where there's a high proportion of camping, not a great deal of money will enter the local economy aside from farmers renting fields and the local supermarkets doing a decent trade in bbq food. give people a reason to stay in the city (and good transport options from there to the venue) and you're encouraging them to put money into local businesses, pay money for hotel rooms, maybe stay a few extra days either side of the race and to get a holiday from attending a grand prix as well as see a big event. it all helps regions justify the hosting fee - which liberty would be mad not to renegotiate down anyway.

as for purists grumbling, they don't have to engage with the additional events. if the circuits continue to pursue bringing the drivers and cars closer to the crowds with stuff like pitlane walkabouts, autograph sessions, driver appearances on stages and whathaveyou, then there's not really a great deal to complain about.

paddock access isn't really worthwhile for the average spectator now - the cars are well hidden in the pits, the team are usually hidden away in offices and stuff working, and drivers are really busy. nobody has time for casual engagement any more, that's modern f1. commercial obligations, team obligations, preparation, it all adds up now. aside from seeing some seriously cool motorhomes from the outside (if this is your bag, try monaco) there's nothing really there.

[Peter Mallett]

Originally Posted by bella

i think resurrecting the festival style weekends are a great idea but realistically, does silverstone have space for a bigger crowd and more facilities? or are we expecting them to not raise ticket prices, but fund aforementioned festival of motorsport using the same hosting fees/actual cost of hosting event/ticket price setup?

Don't forget the support championships used to pay to be at the GP. It wasn't a freebie. Also the running time for the event was three days so no change there either. What has happened is the on track action has reduced.

Originally Posted by bella

liberty are kinda suggesting more of a montreal, austin, indy 500 and monaco approach - get the entire city involved and set up for specific events and parties to offer the visitors and residents more encouragement to enjoy the entire weekend. i mean, in monaco most of the people partying don't actually see the race...

This is not a problem for me although the relevance of a street party or whatever gets lost.

Originally Posted by bella

if you look at the races where there's a high proportion of camping, not a great deal of money will enter the local economy aside from farmers renting fields and the local supermarkets doing a decent trade in bbq food. give people a reason to stay in the city (and good transport options from there to the venue) and you're encouraging them to put money into local businesses, pay money for hotel rooms, maybe stay a few extra days either side of the race and to get a holiday from attending a grand prix as well as see a big event. it all helps regions justify the hosting fee - which liberty would be mad not to renegotiate down anyway.

I used to camp at GPs from 1975 to 2003 and thus I'm not entirely sure of the relevance of this point in terms of spectator experience. The burgers could always be improved though. The reason for camping was to witness the entire programme not just a 90 mins (if lucky) economy run.

Originally Posted by bella

as for purists grumbling, they don't have to engage with the additional events. if the circuits continue to pursue bringing the drivers and cars closer to the crowds with stuff like pitlane walkabouts, autograph sessions, driver appearances on stages and whathaveyou, then there's not really a great deal to complain about.

Back in the seventies and eighties, you could walk around the pits, get autographs at the designated locations, meet the drivers etc. Nothing new in that.

Originally Posted by bella

paddock access isn't really worthwhile for the average spectator now - the cars are well hidden in the pits, the team are usually hidden away in offices and stuff working, and drivers are really busy. nobody has time for casual engagement any more, that's modern f1. commercial obligations, team obligations, preparation, it all adds up now. aside from seeing some seriously cool motorhomes from the outside (if this is your bag, try monaco) there's nothing really there.

Agreed, but once again all your points relate to F1 and not to motor sport. The GP was the main motor sporting event of the year, it was the chance for the local championships to get some much needed publicity. Now with the travelling circus all you get is the same support bill at every event, it has no or very little relevance to the country in which it takes place. It may as well be on TV because there's no need to attend. Granted things have changed in the BTCC etc. but the fact remains that we should be looking at the problem holistically rather than F1 is all there is. That way, as we are experiencing, lies a lingering death.

Formula 1 in and of itself is just high speed motor racing. It needs to be set in context thus the "show" should really include more relevance to general racing fans. That in turn would IMO increase the attendance.

[bella]

Originally Posted by Peter Mallett

Agreed, but once again all your points relate to F1 and not to motor sport. The GP was the main motor sporting event of the year, it was the chance for the local championships to get some much needed publicity.

i do agree that a national showcase event would be seriously cool, but playing devils advocate a bit, is that necessary any more? the times of which we speak are very different. it's much easier to investigate, find out more and watch a few races for a series on youtube. many headline events stream live one way or another, either on telly directly or through youtube or dailymotion or somesuch.

Originally Posted by Peter Mallett

Formula 1 in and of itself is just high speed motor racing. It needs to be set in context thus the "show" should really include more relevance to general racing fans. That in turn would IMO increase the attendance.

for non-motorsport fans, f1 is the gateway drug. for general motorsport fans, it's the expensive pinnacle that they don't feel it's necessary to go to more than once every few years.

i'm sure chunder has said something similar at some point in the discussion, but why would general motorsport fans pay 10 times the usual to see a british gt round (for example) that happens to be on the f1 support bill?

i think the only thing that will change imminently is that the relevant national f4 championship will have a guest appearance on a gp bill. no inside information, just a hunch based on it being worthwhile.

there's actually a decent amount of track action - monaco has the usual number of supports, albeit slightly different series (eurocup replacing gp3), and there's something on track or preparing to go out(or going on in the pitlane) almost all the time. and they have an extra half a day on other circuits due to thursday-saturday-sunday running for f1 and friday mornings for the supports. there's just enough time to sweep up the mess, and have the start procedure or transfer the teams from one pitlane to another.

[S griffin]

All this discussion about adding national support races to the British GO, I'm afraid it's not unique to Silverstone. There is none happening at the likes of Germany, Italy, Spain, Japan etc. The only one that does is the Aussie GP and that should be applauded

[bella]

Originally Posted by S griffin

All this discussion about adding national support races to the British GO, I'm afraid it's not unique to Silverstone. There is none happening at the likes of Germany, Italy, Spain, Japan etc. The only one that does is the Aussie GP and that should be applauded

as i stated earlier, monaco does it.

[The Fat Clerk]

I remember going to Surfers Paradise in 2000 for the Indy car race. it was a 4 day meeting and on the Thursday night the last track action was a Formula Ford race. I think thee were 13 races over the weekend including a couple of bashs for the awesome Aussie V8 Touring Cars.

[Mike Bell]

Getting the local large town / city involved in a 'festival' isn't going to work for Silverstone- it's just too far from anywhere. Great for a circuit that is within or on the edge of a big catchment area- there are several but not in the UK!

Silverstone does cram a lot of stuff in for the Classic, but still not sure that would be enough for a GP festival....

[bella]

milton keynes would work - nowadays that's where the majority of the local hotel rooms are, and there's plenty of space and opportunity. not so much northampton, i'd have to agree there

[chillibowl]

Originally Posted by bella

liberty are kinda suggesting more of a montreal, austin, indy 500 and monaco approach - get the entire city involved and set up for specific events and parties to offer the visitors and residents more encouragement to enjoy the entire weekend. i mean, in monaco most of the people partying don't actually see the race...

cant speak to those other races, but Montreal really does offer a lot to attract visitors/tourist to the city during the GP weekend.

does Silverstone attract a lot of (foreign) tourists?

i would question how much (national level) support races and camping would do to promote foreign visitors.

of course, foreign visitors may have very little effect on Silverstone's attendance numbers but having a lot of tourists attend does help to make the case to the gov't that they should be directly subsidizing the event...which is the argument Montreal makes to our various levels of gov't.

also i would ask, how much of this is a problem unique to the UK?

England is already an expensive country (from my experience as a tourist and given the relative exchange rates) to visit, let alone a place to visit to watch an F1 race. more so if i am staying in London and driving back and forth to the track each day.

[Mike Harte]

The problem that we have here is that most posters are arguing from a "purist's" point of view, and that we want to see more car action and racing of different classes of cars.

However, from Silverstone's perception, they must feel as though they are doing something right, and that the prices that they charge are in the right ball-park. I say this because a quick glance at their website shows that, even now before the end of January and with a further 5 months to go, they have already sold out tickets for 4 of the larger grandstands (and not the cheapest ones, either!). And if previous years are anything to go by, it won't be long before the Park and Ride is fully booked up.

The other problem that the GP events have to contend with is the TV schedules, and having everything running to a strict timeline. This means that the organisers build in down time for track clearance, and barrier repairs. This is all well and good, but if the track remains pretty clean, and no barriers require attention, you end up with absolutely nothing going on.

Now, that is all fine and dandy if you have a reserved seat in the grandstand, because in the down time you can leave your place and have a wander around or what have you. But if you are just there on the hardstanding or on the banks, you are pretty well stuck there from 6.00 in the morning until the GP finishes which can be at around 15.15. And last year we spent more time looking at either an empty track or the mechanised road-sweepers than watching cars actually race.

[Greem]

Originally Posted by Mike Harte

TAnd last year we spent more time looking at either an empty track or the mechanised road-sweepers than watching cars actually race.

That time was built in to the schedule to let me go for a wee

[Peter Mallett]

Originally Posted by bella

i do agree that a national showcase event would be seriously cool, but playing devils advocate a bit, is that necessary any more? the times of which we speak are very different. it's much easier to investigate, find out more and watch a few races for a series on youtube. many headline events stream live one way or another, either on telly directly or through youtube or dailymotion or somesuch.

Yes indeed which makes the whole thing unsustainable as a spectator sport.

Originally Posted by bella

for non-motorsport fans, f1 is the gateway drug. for general motorsport fans, it's the expensive pinnacle that they don't feel it's necessary to go to more than once every few years.

I think you are saying that the GP will garner its audience from non fans who just turn up for that event. Not sure how that works really. I'm a non football fan and I sure as hell don't want to go to the FA Cup.

Originally Posted by bella

i'm sure chunder has said something similar at some point in the discussion, but why would general motorsport fans pay 10 times the usual to see a british gt round (for example) that happens to be on the f1 support bill?

If we try not to divorce Formula 1 from general motorsport then the logic may be that a motorsport fan wants to attend the big one because it brings together all of the facets that the motorsport fan enjoys.

Originally Posted by bella

i think the only thing that will change imminently is that the relevant national f4 championship will have a guest appearance on a gp bill. no inside information, just a hunch based on it being worthwhile.

Ok, but what about the national Touring Car Championship?

Originally Posted by bella

there's actually a decent amount of track action - monaco has the usual number of supports, albeit slightly different series (eurocup replacing gp3), and there's something on track or preparing to go out(or going on in the pitlane) almost all the time. and they have an extra half a day on other circuits due to thursday-saturday-sunday running for f1 and friday mornings for the supports. there's just enough time to sweep up the mess, and have the start procedure or transfer the teams from one pitlane to another.

Track action as in meaningless testing (other than Monaco)? It used to be that there was a qualifying session on each of the three days and the best time from any one of the sessions would be that driver's qualifying time. I realise I'm looking through rose tints to an extent, but there has to be something better than what's on offer currently. I'll return to this point later.

Originally Posted by Mike Bell

Getting the local large town / city involved in a 'festival' isn't going to work for Silverstone- it's just too far from anywhere. Great for a circuit that is within or on the edge of a big catchment area- there are several but not in the UK!

Indeed it won't work for Silverstone. Or similarly located circuits such as Spa Francorchamps.

If Silverstone could select the support events then presumably it would select BTCC, British F3 (if it still exists), The current junior formula, Porsches obviously, etc. The teams would pay to attend because this is the pinnacle motorsports event of the year. The various Championship organisers would also pay for the same reason.

But, returning to that previous point, what Silverstone and the other circuits have, is a standard package which bears no relevance to the general motorsports fan in that country. A package that majors on Formula 1 rather than the products on offer in that particular country. Then instead of something Silverstone can sell to the public for a reasonable price, it has to sell tickets for something that has become niche and furthermore which has been turned into a tv centric display. On that basis all it can do to retain the event is to put up the prices. In turn the genuine fans of the sport are turned off and the promoter has to go into TV promotion mode to try to recoup its losses.

A vicious circle. It's not about the rules and the costs for the teams. It's all about what is being offered to the fans and frankly it is pretty damned poor these days. A GP event should be a celebration of the sport in the country. A good example is Autosport. That used to be the bible for motorsports fans in the UK but now it can't sell an issue unless there's a Formula 1 car on the cover. Indeed most of its on line feed is Formula 1.

It is why many of us, even if we are fortunate enough to be able to afford to attend a GP, just can't be bothered anymore. And that is IMO the reason why Silverstone, Montreal, Hockenhiem/Nurburgring, Monza et al, are suffering. It is also IMO why motorsport in general is suffering. There is no encouragement from the top because they are worried that people will realise there's more to the sport than Formula 1.

[chunder]

There is only two facts here

Silverstone will not do anything about prices because it keeps selling out

Fans can do something, but they wont because sadly they dont have the willpower to realise the precedent they are making.

[billy bleach]

Originally Posted by S griffin

All this discussion about adding national support races to the British GO, I'm afraid it's not unique to Silverstone. There is none happening at the likes of Germany, Italy, Spain, Japan etc. The only one that does is the Aussie GP and that should be applauded

The support races in UK were driven out by unreasonable demands from FOM - limiting car sponsorship , covering trucks and other bizarre going on. V8's were dropped off the GP bill for the same reasons but the gate dropped dramaticallyso they were asked back. However when they are not running the garage doors have to be shut and the timings of on track are not great. Off course in Europe it was all designed to give space to GP2 and GP3 and who ran that?....

[Peter Mallett]

That is my point.