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Old 1 Mar 2016, 20:38 (Ref:3619098)   #16
SidewaysFeltham
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Originally Posted by chillibowl View Post
and who is to say protecting life in general or human life would be the priority?

if the program looks at this in terms of liability then perhaps the conclusion it comes to is that value of the life of an 80 year old retired person is less than the potential property damage so when it attempts to avoid an accident it does so from the point of view of which outcome will cost its owner more money and attempt to avoid that...taking out the old person or driving into that house.


scary stuff.
In medical emergency situations, I believe it is called Triage, Chilli.

As a chum advised me some years ago. Choice: young child; middle aged man/woman: old geezer.??

Choice Target One: child.

Target Two: Middles aged man/woman.

Target Three: geezer.
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Old 1 Mar 2016, 20:43 (Ref:3619104)   #17
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What point were you trying to make? That theres too many cars on the road and people take driving for granted?
Precisely.

Plus, since their very success from Henry Ford's first ultimate goal, automobiles have made themseves self-obsolescent.

As did the horse, as a means of both personal travel and freight movements.

Instead of self-driving cars, then synthesise the concept into a self-steering horse!

Which wouldn't have meant the horse wasn't past its sell by date, huh?
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Old 1 Mar 2016, 21:03 (Ref:3619112)   #18
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In medical emergency situations, I believe it is called Triage, Chilli.
computer assisted triage!

would that come as an option or a standard feature?
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Old 2 Mar 2016, 00:10 (Ref:3619150)   #19
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google r & d

News has just come out that one of Google's self driving Lexus hybrid suv's got tangled up with city bus in Mountain View, California on February 14th. Nobody was hurt, obviously the system still requires some attention. Google is accepting "partial responsibility." Any lawyers out there?
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Old 2 Mar 2016, 09:53 (Ref:3619219)   #20
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I completely disagree with the idea that a modern vehicle is "de-skilling" current drivers. Given that decades ago, a driving test involved driving up and down a runway and knowing the basic controls, and todays test is FAR more comprehensive, I don't think that's fair.

In 1960, there was some 6 million registered cars on British roads. There was also 8000 (!!) deaths in traffic collisions. In 2010 there was 30 million registered cars. There was under 2000 deaths. So there are 5 times more vehicles, but less than a quarter of the deaths.

Now you could argue that the vehicles being safer were the cause of the reduced deaths. So lets look at general accident statistics. In 1960 there was 341,000 injuries - this includes minor and slight injury. In 2010 there was 203,000, so a reduction of over a third. In 2013, there was 181,000, which is a further reduction of about one tenth in 3 years, with no major advancements in car technology.

So I do not agree with the suggestion that we're deskilling drivers. The statistics show the opposite where despite a massive increase in vehicle numbers, we're having less accidents than ever before, killing less people than ever, and putting people through a driving test which becomes more comprehensive every year. And this is before we start talking about todays information overload society. The idea that current drivers are worse is the lovely nostalgic feeling we get about the old days. It isn't reflected in the statistics at all.

I do not believe that an argument against self-driving cars should be the de-skilling argument. There are plenty of good pro/con arguments for the vehicles. I believe they have their place in the world, but it isn't in my garage.

Last edited by Akrapovic; 2 Mar 2016 at 10:15.
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Old 2 Mar 2016, 11:51 (Ref:3619248)   #21
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I completely disagree with the idea that a modern vehicle is "de-skilling" current drivers. Given that decades ago, a driving test involved driving up and down a runway and knowing the basic controls, and todays test is FAR more comprehensive, I don't think that's fair.
Oh dear, my memory must be suffering badly.

Since I took and passed my driving test in 1959, I seem to have forgotten the bit about the runway??

Seriously, the driving test at that time was the same, in principle, as for many years thereafter. Car control ws critical, as automatic transmission ws only applied to a few luxury and large cars and then was mainly the US Borg Warner 3 speed unit with a torque converter and very inefficient. Manual boxes lack good synchromesh (Until the Porsche patent baulk ring system became ubiquitous).

Thus clutch control and smooth gearchanging were essential. And every test included a mandatory hill start. Included were three point turns, reversing around a corner and if you were unlucky, parking between two vehicles; followed by an emergency stop, under full control (and tests were conducted in heavy rain), etc. Finally, a viva voce (verbal) quiz on the Highway Code.

Most of today's drivers, who pull out in front of others, fail to give signals, swerve and swop lanes constantly, park in the wrong places, such as on the wrong side of the road at night with headlamps blazing away, etc would fail.

Even with manual gears, today's learners are taught to drive up to stop lines and use the brakes rather than gears: thus they are not in control.

In terms of statistics, such are, as always valueless when considered on surface, rather than drilling down and segmenting such into sub-sets.

The national speed limits was introduced in 1966, a statistical skew.

The road breath test (breathalyser) was introduced in 1967 as was the now cast in stone drink-drive limit: previously, it was an arbitrary process reliant only on a doctor deciding if the subject was unfit to drive due to alcohol.

In 1960, there were many older cars on the road: these were far heavier, many with solid chassis. The Kinetic Energy imparted on impact was far far greater; thus the damage far greater too. No seatbelts.

No collapsable telescopic steering columns: in a moderate to severe accident which involved sudden deceleration, drivers were invariably speared through the chest, mortally. Additionally, with no crumple zones, often driver and front seat passenger/s suffered the engine/gearbox unit slamming back onto their legs: look Mum, no legs!
Remembering, whilst the mass of the car had decelerated to zero velocity, the passengers hadn't...

Also critical in reduction of death and injury has been the introduction of safety standards which manufacturers have had to adhere to for their products to be "Type-Approved": without which they cannot sell them.

Also to be added into the mix are: cross-ply tyres: Drum brakes which faded: brake fluid which being hygroscopic absorbed atmospheric moisture and when hot, the water boiled, turned to steam and no hydraulic first principle. Fun: happened to me more than once.

Serious drivers on ice, snow and heavy rain conditions, has to learn Cadence Braking techniques: 'cos there was no ABS.

Steering was hit and miss and suspension, agricultural.

With Clean Air Acts and controls of industrial smoke pollution, the dreadful Smogs and Winter fogs of the 50s, 60s and early 70s have all but vanished.

Next skew: as traffic density has increased, but most road mileage still dates back to the 1930s, generally, speed has fallen considerably: I just wish I could have exceeded the bloody speed limit yesterday morning! it took me 2 hours to travel 22 miles: a journey which in the 1960s on a then winding country lane, mainly would have taken perhaps 25 minutes. And I left at 06.45 AM.

Modern Unit-Construction (monocoque) cars are designed to crumple: bumpers too. The passenger safety zone protects them from the engine landing on their legs.

Far lighter grades of mild steel and extensive use of alloys and plastics has significantly reduced vehicle weight: thus a car-to-car head on collision creates far less kinetic energy.

Inertia Reel seat belts and Air Bags have further reduced both serious injury and fatality. More statistical skews!

Tyres do not blow out as they used to. Modern High Hysteresis radial tyres, thanks to motor sport, rarely suffer from aquaplaning. If you have never experienced severe aquaplaning at 80 MPH, then believe me, you haven't lived!

An excellent cure for constipation!

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with no major advancements in car technology.
Automotive technology advances week by week.

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So I do not agree with the suggestion that we're deskilling drivers.
Forget the bare and thus unqualified and ergo, tenuous statistical arguments; and please consider the foregoing.
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Old 2 Mar 2016, 13:11 (Ref:3619271)   #22
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I won't dissect your post as I feel that takes us far too far off topic and tbh is a little disrespectful (I feel when people do that, they do it purely to create arguments), isn't a fair thing to do, but I disagree with basically the entire thing, especially -

Quote:
Seriously, the driving test at that time was the same, in principle, as for many years thereafter.
This just isn't true, I'm sorry. I work with driving instructors and examiners who have said it's barely recognizable what drivers go through now compared to what they did before. Mentioning what is the same ignores what is not. The theory test did not even existed until the mid 90s and has massively evolved into an entirely different animal, and then the introduction of the Hazard Perception is a completely new concept, nevermind being principally the same as something 5 decades ago. The Independent Driving section was only introduced in the last few years as well. Despite these additional elements being introduced, the theory test being introduced, the highway code evolving massively, and roads becoming more congested and complex in layout, the pass mark has remained the same - 45-50% (varying more on location than anything else). So todays drivers are coping with more advanced test with more stressful environments, with the same pass rate. This does not coincide with a lack of driving skills.

Giving examples like "most of todays drivers who commit X offense" is meaningless, since they'd have failed their test 50 years ago too according to the description you've given, and yet here we are with bad drivers of all ages. How can this possibly be? And since new drivers are only allowed to total 6 penalty points in their first 2 years, they already have less of a buffer to work with than the more experienced drivers.

I have provided many a statistic to show that driving has not gotten worse. You have dismissed these as baseless and without value, but replaced it with anecdotal evidence. I don't see how this has any more value than the facts from government studies, which show accidents declining despite the massive increase of cars. Sorry if you disagree, but then we'll have to agree to disagree on that point.

-----------------------

On the topic of driverless cars - currently there's a problem where the driver is still legally in charge of the vehicle, even with the computer driving. This sounds fine before you consider what would happen in an accident really, as you'd have to take control of the vehicle extremely quickly.

How does this link to the self parking cars? Who is responsible should you bump something using those?

I can see this working if everything was self driving. But with a bunch of humans in the equation, you'll never be able to tell what the person is actually going to do. And what happens when they come across a police chase? I know it sounds mental, but that's the sort of thing a human reacts to. You could make it react accordingly to blue flashing lights, but a car trying to escape the police...? Hmmmm.

There is a place for these cars in this world, without a doubt. But I do enjoy my daily commute, and it'll be sad if that goes.
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Old 2 Mar 2016, 20:55 (Ref:3619409)   #23
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interesting debate about the deskilling of drivers.

certainly as cars have become safer/better built/better tech one would expect fatalities and injuries to decline dramatically over time but that is not the same as the total number of collisions per number of cars on the road.

at the same time, most cars are made out of plastic so maybe more collisions get reported these days. in the past if no one was hurt why report a collision/file an insurance claim to fix a dent in a steel bumper when you could just bang it out yourself. but today if someone rear ends me they have probably cracked my rear (plastic) bumper so i have to report a collision/file an insurance claim because i cant fix it myself.

so im not sure how accurate collision stats would be anyways.


as for driveless cars,

yeah good point. in the interim as people switch over/ buy new cars there will be a lot of problems but will those problems still exist when every car on the road is an automated one?

if every car was computer controlled and each car was operating on the same network and the network was working properly, then presumably there would never be another accident (or as close to zero as possible) because every car would know what the other cars around it were doing and could act accordingly.
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Old 3 Mar 2016, 03:29 (Ref:3619477)   #24
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I spend 10-12 hours a week in bumper-to-bumper traffic. My average speed over the last 400 miles is 17mph. I'll hit a button and take the chance that it drives me into a bridge abutment. I won't be going fast enough to do much damage.
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Old 3 Mar 2016, 16:37 (Ref:3619575)   #25
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I won't dissect your post as I feel that takes us far too far off topic and tbh is a little disrespectful (I feel when people do that, they do it purely to create arguments), isn't a fair thing to do, but I disagree with basically the entire thing, especially -
As I took and passed my test in July 1963, I can totally agree with Sidesways Feltham and it was carried out on the streets around the North London suburb of London, Hendon, which included driving on both single and dual carriage way roads which and no speed limit then.In fact there were a number of other things in the test that young people just laugh at nowadays, the most obvious being the use of hand signals. This meant that regardless of the weather, the driver had to keep his window fully open so that you could indicate with your right arm completely out that you were slowing down or turning right. Mind you, I can't remember who was holding on to the steering wheel whilst you doing that and changing down gear at the same time .

And the car that I took my test in didn't have a synchromesh gearbox, so it was double-declutching, a skill that I would guess is not possessed by many youngsters. And as Sideways says, tyre technology has moved on hugely over the decades; the rain was just as wet 40 or 50 years ago, and we didn't have the advantage of modern patterns and compounds which help to keep cars, on the whole, on the straight and narrow. But what I have noticed is that the older generations seem to have better road craft skills when ice and snow are around compared to youngsters; maybe it's because we learnt how to drive on the older style tyres that gives us an edge. Obviously, there are exceptions.
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Old 5 Mar 2016, 15:03 (Ref:3620220)   #26
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Driverless trucks to be trialled on English Motorway M6
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...ection-M6.html
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Old 5 Mar 2016, 18:18 (Ref:3620251)   #27
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Driverless trucks to be trialled on English Motorway M6
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...ection-M6.html
i read the other day that there are around 4 million professional truck drivers in the USA and Canada ...all of whom are effectively going to be out of a job in about 10 years time.

its a scary future for a lot of people/families.
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Old 5 Mar 2016, 23:33 (Ref:3620327)   #28
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Don't get too excited about this just yet. This report is the spin put on the story which was put out by another paper, which was based on unconfirmed reports that our Chancellor of the Exchequer will be going to announce in his Budget statement to Parliament on Wednesday 16th March. A word of caution though; British media always spends 2 or 3 weeks prior to our Budgets speculating about what may or may not be included, and very, very often get it completely wrong.

However, in recent years various ministers have found it necessary, and I've never really understood why, to leak or brief the media about what they are to shortly announce in Parliament. It certainly upsets the opposition parties in particular because it breaches Parliamentary convention, which is that government should always announce matters to Parliament before releasing the information to the public.
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Old 6 Mar 2016, 13:52 (Ref:3620552)   #29
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when they say driverless trucks, what they mean is trucks with a "drives itself" mode on motorways. a condition of using the control is that a driver is present at the wheel and paying attention to the road.

we're still a very long way from trucks that could handle say, a busy roundabout in the middle of surburbia. there's a spectacular number of variables and calculations - getting the damn thing round the roundabout, giving up and sending it even though the cars already on the roundabout are going to have to apply the brakes a bit, avoiding the inevitable school mum in the wrong lane...
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Old 6 Mar 2016, 20:28 (Ref:3620630)   #30
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As I took and passed my test in July 1963, I can totally agree with Sidesways Feltham and it was carried out on the streets around the North London suburb of London, Hendon, which included driving on both single and dual carriage way roads which and no speed limit then.In fact there were a number of other things in the test that young people just laugh at nowadays, the most obvious being the use of hand signals. This meant that regardless of the weather, the driver had to keep his window fully open so that you could indicate with your right arm completely out that you were slowing down or turning right. Mind you, I can't remember who was holding on to the steering wheel whilst you doing that and changing down gear at the same time .

And the car that I took my test in didn't have a synchromesh gearbox, so it was double-declutching, a skill that I would guess is not possessed by many youngsters. And as Sideways says, tyre technology has moved on hugely over the decades; the rain was just as wet 40 or 50 years ago, and we didn't have the advantage of modern patterns and compounds which help to keep cars, on the whole, on the straight and narrow. But what I have noticed is that the older generations seem to have better road craft skills when ice and snow are around compared to youngsters; maybe it's because we learnt how to drive on the older style tyres that gives us an edge. Obviously, there are exceptions.
Mike: when I am not in that paradise for drivers, Northern France where it is so much like the 1950s, I have the misfortune to live in Essex: the driving standards in Essex and East London are utterly appalling, as anyone who uses the A127, A130, M25 etc will know well.

Fortunately I learned and even taught, selectively, for a while, Defensive Driving skills. Boy do I need those skills now!

Perhaps young Essex drivers suffer dementia?? Since they have clearly forgotten all they were supposed to know?

On De-Skilling, it is an inescapable function of present Western society: whether it is driving, piloting airplanes, operating a centre lathe, whatever.

Last evening, I watched the engaging young Guy Martin who was involved in a project to rebuild an early Supermarine Spitfire, which crashed on the beaches near Dunkirk. For me, the section where they team had to re-size the precision steel pins used to fix the wings to the airfame was absorbing. Ensuring the pins had a 2 thou clearance through the dural fastening plates reminder me of hand reaming mounting holes. How many could do this today? How many actually own fixed and expanding reamers anymore? How many know how to use them?

Also most interesting was to consider, Reginald Mitchell designed a central monocoque (The airframe) and the Merlin engine was mounted on a small subframe bolted onto the monocoque bulkhead, identically to a D Type Jag or a Lotus 25 in the 1962 season. All other serious single seaters soon followed on: albeit, 26 years later!
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