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Old 6 Mar 2016, 19:39 (Ref:3620642)   #31
Akrapovic
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All of this anecdotal evidence is lovely but it just isn't supported by the statistics. You could argue we're less skilled, or you could point out that people don't need to know how to double d clutch since it isn't a relevant skill. What IS a relevant skill however is the ability to know the computer on your car rather well, which is something that many many of my elderly friends struggle with. So what exactly is the point in being skilled in things which aren't relevant?

Once again, I'll point out that the current driving test contains far more content than it ever has done, as well as introducing a theory test, hazard perception test and takes place on far more crowded and stressful roads than in the past. Yet the pass mark remains the same. Those terrible deskilled drivers of today are taking in more information and ticking more boxes than previous generations, and having the same success rate. I know that might hurt some of the older generations pride, but that's just the facts. Sorry guys!
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Old 6 Mar 2016, 19:41 (Ref:3620644)   #32
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i read the other day that there are around 4 million professional truck drivers in the USA and Canada ...all of whom are effectively going to be out of a job in about 10 years time.

its a scary future for a lot of people/families.
Clearly, and strangely, the answer for interstate transport will be, err, trains.

With more localised deliveries from the goods yard to the final destination.

Consider: freight carried by carts drawn by horses and bullocks.

Replaced by railroads, which indeed, opened up the USA and particularly the West, moving steers from the railheads to the main meat processors.

Trains increasingly replaced by large interstate trucks.

Fast forwards: trucks replaced by much more efficient freight trains using electricity, rather than oil.

In 1930s USA, internal airlines impacted upon passenger railways.

1950s on internal flights became cheap.

2000s on: high speed "Bullet Trains", using maglev technology reach speeds of 400/500/600 Km per Hour (Japanese bullet trains already reach 320KPH). Speed of sound is 1,236, so they have quite a ways to go!
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Old 7 Mar 2016, 14:59 (Ref:3620917)   #33
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[QUOTE=SidewaysFeltham;3620644]Clearly, and strangely, the answer for interstate transport will be, err, trains.

With more localised deliveries from the goods yard to the final destination./QUOTE]

Funny you should say that, and it may be applicable in the States. However, back in the 60s , or was it the 70s, British Rail introduced Freightliners which were supposed to take goods trucks off the trunk roads and motorways. My firm actually used them for a limited period, mainly for goods we sending from London to Airdrie, but that didn't last long. They out-priced themselves, very much like the train companies do now for flexible tickets for long journeys.

Although Freightliners still exists, it is not the same as it was intended, and I believe that the original firm was more or less decimated by the mid 80s. In the meantime, road haulage has multiplied many times over, and still rules the roost in the UK, which I think will continue for many years to come.
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Old 7 Mar 2016, 19:53 (Ref:3621007)   #34
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All of this anecdotal evidence is lovely but it just isn't supported by the statistics. You could argue we're less skilled, or you could point out that people don't need to know how to double d clutch since it isn't a relevant skill. What IS a relevant skill however is the ability to know the computer on your car rather well, which is something that many many of my elderly friends struggle with. So what exactly is the point in being skilled in things which aren't relevant?

Once again, I'll point out that the current driving test contains far more content than it ever has done, as well as introducing a theory test, hazard perception test and takes place on far more crowded and stressful roads than in the past. Yet the pass mark remains the same. Those terrible deskilled drivers of today are taking in more information and ticking more boxes than previous generations, and having the same success rate. I know that might hurt some of the older generations pride, but that's just the facts. Sorry guys!
Clearly, these whizzy tests aint working, Old Chum!

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The risk of motor vehicle crashes is higher among 16- to 19-year-olds than among any other age group. In fact, per mile driven, teen drivers ages 16 to 19 are nearly three times more likely than drivers aged 20 and older to be in a fatal crash.

https://www.gov.uk/government/upload...ivers-2011.pdf

http://www.brake.org.uk/events/15-fa...the-hard-facts

http://www.racfoundation.org/assets/...-%20110511.pdf
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Old 21 Mar 2016, 19:37 (Ref:3625708)   #35
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so this might me getting overly paranoid about the big brother state....the fear of cars being hacked has been around for a bit now but a few days ago the FBI and a US safety department released a warning about concerns they have about this.

http://www.wired.com/2016/03/fbi-war...ing-real-risk/

makes sense and obviously a new level of caution must be implemented when adding 3rd party equipment to your car now and one wonders what level of security the car companies are building into their software or are they much more focused on just getting the software to work to be bothered about security.

but those issues aside, given the FBI's recent demands that Apple help the US government break its own encryption makes me more curious about the governments motives are and the unintended consequences of having hacked systems carry out important tasks for us.

and forget about what the government wants to do with this info (its not like drive much more then to work and home anyways) but soon we will have another tool at our disposal to spy on one another, our family members, our employees, our loved ones. its scary to think what some people will do this power of control!

obviously safety first so more pros than cons...but the ability to get in one's own car and drive wherever you want is synonymous with the concept of freedom i grew up with. its a little sad to think that there is a generation coming up who may not grow up thinking a car means freedom.
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Old 22 Mar 2016, 10:42 (Ref:3625911)   #36
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Now here's a point, Chilli.

If you can find it, read Sir Ran Fiennes's book "The Feather Men". Bearing in mind he is ex-special forces (SAS). The SAS are experts at what is called (by them) Jarking. Look it up.

As motor cars have become endlessly complicated, more and more solid state (digital) systems interact.

In order to control incipent skidding, steering rear wheels are used. Same with advanced self-parking systems.

Technologists talk now about "The Internet of Things": by which they mean anything and everything. Generation 5 cellular technology allows rapid wide bandwidth internet connection...

We have already seen the dire problems experienced by Toyota a few years back. Conflate the various issues.

As systems advance manufacturers will build-in software updates via GSM linkage since it is easier and cheaper for them. However once that link is in place then nothing much to stop hackers breaking the security and taking over the vehicle.
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Old 22 Mar 2016, 16:06 (Ref:3626010)   #37
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nice, i will take a look and see if i can find it.

but i feel like that story would just add to my paranoia so maybe i should avoid it lol!
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Old 22 Mar 2016, 18:04 (Ref:3626047)   #38
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nice, i will take a look and see if i can find it.

but i feel like that story would just add to my paranoia so maybe i should avoid it lol!
Seems you just might be able to download for free!

http://bastudio.eu/?c=1&p=34108
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Old 22 Mar 2016, 20:07 (Ref:3626083)   #39
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i know that movie. did not realize it was based on that book.

nice find. thanks for the link!
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Old 24 Mar 2016, 18:31 (Ref:3626862)   #40
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I say no thanks.

From what I have seen personally and know within the industry, the technology is actually further away than some predict.

I grew up with computers from a very young age and I knew there were a lot of possibilities of what it could do and over the decades it's ended up about where I thought it would. I would say that I am not anti technology but perhaps I want technology to be part of my life but not all of my life. To me what's the point of living just living a mind numbed life pressing a few buttons at home, having a car drive you around and twiddling with your phone?
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Old 26 Mar 2016, 08:35 (Ref:3627424)   #41
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You need to go back and read how the discussion began, as the argument wasn't that current teenagers are better than older generations. The claim was made that current modern vehicles deskill the current generation of drivers. That is what I was disputing.

Teenagers will always have a higher accident rate. But they also has a higher accident rate in the 1960s than the older generation of the 1960s. But the claim that overall, today's drivers are worse because the cars are better has no evidence to support it other than anecdotal evidence.

Remember: a lot more cars, a lot more people, a lot more complicated roads, a more complex driving test and the result is the same pass rate and less accidents. That's impressive! Tell me more about how bad today's drivers are whilst we have less accidents in more busy roads.

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Old 26 Mar 2016, 09:43 (Ref:3627445)   #42
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Remember: a lot more cars, a lot more people, a lot more complicated roads, a more complex driving test and the result is the same pass rate and less accidents. That's impressive! Tell me more about how bad today's drivers are whilst we have less accidents in more busy roads.
Three points. Firstly, there has always been a quota of driving test passes permitted in each month. You will find that, statistically, more tests are passed in the beginning of the month than in the later part.

Secondly, it will all depend on how figures are calculated to determine whether teenagers as a percentage have more or less accidents than decades ago. A direct comparison can only be satisfactory if statistics are being collected in exactly the same way now as then, and if those statistics are being used in an identical fashion. I have a sneaky feeling that may not prove to be the case.

Lastly, even though the test may be more complex nowadays, although I have no evidence of that fact as I took the test almost 53 years ago and am taking your words as the truth, cars are far easier to drive nowadays and their road holding vastly superior which gives younger drivers a huge advantage.
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Old 26 Mar 2016, 10:06 (Ref:3627454)   #43
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So people are only passing exams because of a prescribed pass rate that just be achieved? We give people a chance to prove they're good and then we claim the test is rigged when they do? That's some mind bending gymnastics you have to do to justify that. And scarily similar to what we say about school exam results today too. We know for a fact that there is more stuff in the exams and the results are better than ever. Must be proof the exams are easy right? We just love to tell younger generations just how rubbish they are in this country. I think nostalgia is like heroin for older generations.

You don't need my word that the driving test is more advanced than it used to be. We know there's more in it, because there is. Theory Test, Hazard Perception, Independant Driving and soon we'll have GPS Following. These didn't exist before. More boxes have to be ticked to pass now. That isn't my opinion. The tests are also done on more busy roads than in the past. And as the test results from around the nation show, it's harder to pass in busy areas. The Scottish Highlands has a higher pass rate than central London.

And thirdly, if you're driving fast enough in your driving test that the road holding ability of the vehicle comes into the equation, you've already failed your driving test. You shouldn't be answer near the limit of the vehicle.
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Old 26 Mar 2016, 13:36 (Ref:3627529)   #44
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You need to go back and read how the discussion began,
No, actually, you do...

This was the plank of your contention:

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I completely disagree with the idea that a modern vehicle is "de-skilling" current drivers.
ALL advances in technology, essentially involve degrees of de-skilling.

Calculators led to kids not having arithmetic skills:

WP Systems caused the decline of spelling ability:

WP Systems and Email killed handwritten personal letters:

GPS negated the needs for real navigation skills using charts, chronometers, sextants and geometric skills:

Automotive fault diagnosis has removed many car mechanic's abilities to drill down to first principles when chasing faults:

Computerised airplanes has led to flight crew's diminishing ability for precise control, since flying a large aircraft needs regular practice. All OK until the onboard computers die...

Existing systems advances in average automobiles (e.g. ABS) clearly de-skills. It must necessarily follow, logically, since ABS removes the ability to understand and practice purposefully induced skidding.

Statistics:

UK Government Demographics:

https://www.gov.uk/government/upload...nts2010-02.pdf

http://www.iam.org.uk/media-and-rese...g-says-the-iam

Look at Fig 6:

http://www.racfoundation.org/assets/...-%20110511.pdf


Now, let us examine the dates of implementation of the whizzy tests you state "have improved driver ability".

Mandatory Driving Test introduced 1 April 1934 (Appropriate!):

Theory test added July 1996: Age today (17 +2016 - 1996 = 37)

Hazard perception Test added November 2002: Age Today (2016 - 2002 +17 = 31)

If we presume drivers were 17-18 when passing these new tests, and then consider the copious statistics, above, then clearly and indisputably, as I stated, previously, your whizzy tests aint working, Chum!

Q E D
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Old 26 Mar 2016, 16:46 (Ref:3627573)   #45
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The idea that all technology deskills is an idea that only works if you ignore the skills required to use new technology. The ability to actually use a computer is far more relevant than hand writing in today's world. This is not deskilling but rather a a transfer of skills to a more relevant area. This is why the idea that modern drivers are less skilled because they do not double d clutch is nonsense. Today's drivers are more skilled at dealing with the over congestion and information overload than older generations.

Thank you for providing links and then posting the information in the thread. Unfortunately there appears to be a bit of a breakdown of understanding on what we're discussing. You appear to be taking my posts as talking about the youngest possible generation of drivers, hence the mentioning of 17 year olds (you'll notice I haven't mentioned age brackets and certainly nothing that young). The original discussion was not about teenagers who have just passed their test, but the difference between the people who passed tests decades and decades ago, and the drivers of today. The 50s and 60s were even mentioned and some wildly inaccurate claims of the test being the same as 50 years ago were banded about.

You won't find me arguing that 17 year olds are better drivers than 50 year olds. I don't think anyone would (or has) made that claim. But I will dispute that a 25 year old is fundamentally a worse driver because he doesn't know how to use an outdated clutch system, despite passing a more stringent test in a more stressful environment.

Q E D T P and any other letters you'd like.

On the rest of your examples, I don't really agree. The example of not being able to fly a plane without a computer is a particularly bad one since it's all electronic and doesn't physically work without it. So if the onboard computer goes down, then the best pilot in the world isn't flying your plane. And kids using calculators is a good thing since the maths and especially science they are doing has advanced a lot since we were in school. I also don't agree these examples are relevant to the example of cars and clutches and only serve to driver is further off topic.

Edit: just a note that I think the assumption about ages is most likely being tied to an assumption on my age. I am not a teenage driver (I wish). I'm not even a 20s driver. I'm well into my 30s. Whilst I would never say I am old and certainly not as experienced on the road as someone in their 60s. So I am not defending younger generations out of pride of my age, because that isn't my generation!

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