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Old 25 May 2016, 12:47 (Ref:3644298)   #1
SKG
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Monza Redesign

http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2016/05/2...first-chicane/

It looks like Monza will look very different if Formula 1 returns in 2017. What do you think is a realistic, safe solution if the circuit indeed removes the Rettifilio chicane at the start of the lap?

Should the cars power on around Curva Grande at top speed, is the current proposal of a new, faster chicane to replace Curva Grande acceptable? Or if you have any other ideas, lets see them!

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Old 25 May 2016, 16:06 (Ref:3644322)   #2
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The cars can handle Curva Grande, but with the current FIA regulations, reintroducing it would need runoff that goes all the way to the Atlantic coast.
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Old 25 May 2016, 16:34 (Ref:3644324)   #3
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Good.
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Old 25 May 2016, 19:11 (Ref:3644360)   #4
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I think somebody still may have jumped the gun with this. This was just for the return of the FIM WSBK.

Having those two chicanes right in a row will spread the field out, perhaps more than the current arrangement. Also, the reduced radius of the new first corner and the short run to the second chicane will be detrimental to overtaking into both chicanes.

Furthermore, I imagine the new sequence will be flat (that is, no banking), and isn't Curva Grande slightly banked? You guys know just what a tricky act it is to go through Curva Grande side-by-side, so I wouldn't expect to see much, if any, of that in this new section.

(Especially with the field bunched, it might actually BE safer to use Curva Grande, even if it is taken at full-tilt all the way from Parabolica. After 1955, they made the Dunlop Curve at Le Mans a larger-radius corner, which made it safer; this change would be the reverse of that.)

Curva Grande is one of only two "original" corners left, with the other being Parabolica. Looking at the tangential trajectories, there's plenty of gravel outside of Curva Grande for F1. They ought to loosen up the second chicane just a bit if that's going to be the new, first braking zone, to mitigate some of the risk of a first-lap pile-up.

If this is GOING TO happen, be done with it, and have F1 go to Mugello instead.

Last edited by Purist; 25 May 2016 at 19:39.
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Old 25 May 2016, 22:41 (Ref:3644417)   #5
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Maybe more dramatic at the end than I intended to sound, but I'd still prefer Mugello to this version of Monza, or the refurbished Imola.

Also, I wonder how much this change would impact the racing, in terms of changes to the preferred downforce level at the track (increased downforce probably). This might hurt overtaking into the first two chicanes even more. It might, slightly, help overtaking chances into the Variente Ascari. I think it would be relatively neutral in its effect on overtaking into Parabolica.
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Old 26 May 2016, 00:20 (Ref:3644438)   #6
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ScotsBrutesFan should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridScotsBrutesFan should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridScotsBrutesFan should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridScotsBrutesFan should be qualifying in the top 3 on the grid
Ok now this won't impress the the tree-huggers but I've elected for something a little more radical

The new turn one respects the arc of the old banking before straightening with 130-140m before the 90 degree left of T2.
T3 and 4 bring the cars back through an "S" onto the track at approximately the rejoin from the current chicane. perhaps the Southern most section of the Grandstand could be dismantled and built onto the North end.
Given the DRS, the car will have plenty of wing to help grip when accelerating out of the second part onto the short run into Curve Grande.
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Old 26 May 2016, 23:45 (Ref:3644688)   #7
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Ok now this won't impress the the tree-huggers but I've elected for something a little more radical

The new turn one respects the arc of the old banking before straightening with 130-140m before the 90 degree left of T2.
T3 and 4 bring the cars back through an "S" onto the track at approximately the rejoin from the current chicane. perhaps the Southern most section of the Grandstand could be dismantled and built onto the North end.
Given the DRS, the car will have plenty of wing to help grip when accelerating out of the second part onto the short run into Curve Grande.
You continue to demonstrate your talent to make a completely different circuit with minimal changes to the actual layout.
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Old 27 May 2016, 04:17 (Ref:3644737)   #8
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SBF, I don't think your complex is bad, in and of itself; however, every other track like Monza (Silverstone, Hockenheim, Fuji, etc) seems to have seen the additions of complexes and such. So, I just fail to see the need, especially when Monza does now provide this rather unique setup challenge in F1.

They've kept Monaco at the other extreme; this end of the spectrum should be preserved with at least one example as well.

If F1 really needs something, set up a temporary chicane on the front straight just before the banking splits off, where you have the extra width to have room to do such a thing. If you make the exit of this new chicane the slow part, the entry into Curva Grande shouldn't be a whole lot faster than it is now.
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Old 27 May 2016, 04:26 (Ref:3644742)   #9
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What I miss in this all, is the removal of quite a few trees, necessary to create the required run off areas. It's not like Monza never had any trouble with the huggers...

Unless they plant new ones all over Curva Grande?
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Old 27 May 2016, 19:34 (Ref:3644934)   #10
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You continue to demonstrate your talent to make a completely different circuit with minimal changes to the actual layout.
I'm not sure if that's a compliment or not

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If F1 really needs something, set up a temporary chicane on the front straight just before the banking splits off, where you have the extra width to have room to do such a thing. If you make the exit of this new chicane the slow part, the entry into Curva Grande shouldn't be a whole lot faster than it is now.
The widest part of the main straight is at the pit exit, as mentioned the pit lane isn't parallel with the "between the lines" element of the s/f.

That's why the current pit exit is so long as it has return from so far from the circuit edge.

Last edited by ScotsBrutesFan; 27 May 2016 at 19:50.
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Old 28 May 2016, 00:37 (Ref:3644982)   #11
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They're parallel; it's just that the pit lane is set back because of the double-wide front straight rebuilt for the refurbished, combined circuit at Monza in 1955. Due to the width of its (new) front straight, it's kind of a similar thing at Fuji now.

There's room for a temporary chicane or something just before the banking splits off, because, at that point, there is a link road for a short course that cuts off and goes through the infield to just after the Variente Ascari. It's about where they had the first chicane on the combined course that the Sportscars used for the 1966-69 Monza 1000km races.

And as for sorting out pit exit with a chicane there, well, the organizers had to figure out something very similar with the pit exit at Surfers Paradise for the CART/ChampCar races, so I think they can manage it at Monza.
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Old 28 May 2016, 00:50 (Ref:3644984)   #12
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Maybe more dramatic at the end than I intended to sound, but I'd still prefer Mugello to this version of Monza, or the refurbished Imola.

Also, I wonder how much this change would impact the racing, in terms of changes to the preferred downforce level at the track (increased downforce probably). This might hurt overtaking into the first two chicanes even more. It might, slightly, help overtaking chances into the Variente Ascari. I think it would be relatively neutral in its effect on overtaking into Parabolica.
It might hurt overtaking into the new first chicane, but do you think there would be a reasonable chance of an overtake into the new T1 kink? With a straight so long, I think there would be plenty of cars slipstreaming and approaching the corner side by side. Once you have a significant part of your car alongside, you'd own the corner and the guy on the outside would have to back down. I think it would create some interesting on-track moments, and in the case of F1, free up DRS for use into Ascari and then again into Parabolica.

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What I miss in this all, is the removal of quite a few trees, necessary to create the required run off areas. It's not like Monza never had any trouble with the huggers...

Unless they plant new ones all over Curva Grande?
I think the plan is to use everything up to the outside edge of the Curva Grande racing surface as runoff for the new T1, and the area where the Curva Grande gravel runoff is now could be used for grandstands?

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Ok now this won't impress the the tree-huggers but I've elected for something a little more radical

The new turn one respects the arc of the old banking before straightening with 130-140m before the 90 degree left of T2.
T3 and 4 bring the cars back through an "S" onto the track at approximately the rejoin from the current chicane. perhaps the Southern most section of the Grandstand could be dismantled and built onto the North end.
Given the DRS, the car will have plenty of wing to help grip when accelerating out of the second part onto the short run into Curve Grande.
Ah, I don't like this! I think the first part could be interesting (A sweeper following the radius of the banking then a 90 degree-ish leftr turn) but I'm not a fan of the looping S-section. Perhaps if the track went straight through the forest after the 90 left and then a medium-high speed right linked back onto the Curva Grande?

**runs and hides**
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Last edited by SKG; 28 May 2016 at 01:16.
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Old 28 May 2016, 03:19 (Ref:3644991)   #13
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I'm not sure that that new Turn 1 would even be a lift; I think the teams might pile on more downforce, with three additional corners that will make it matter, and that could make the new corner flat-out. At those speeds, this could be one of those rare cases in road racing where the aero-wash has a substantial, visible impact, and a guy following too closely might lose his front-end and go for a ride off into the boonies.

Keep in mind, the radius of this new first turn is less than half that of Curva Grande, and they'll be entering it at MUCH greater speed without a preceding chicane.

However, before we even get that far, with that quicker Turn 2/3 chicane, I don't see how the existing run-off outside the exit of Curva Grande could be considered adequate for F1 cars given the speed they'll be carrying relative to the bikes. And there's a road right outside the track back there, so that, and possibly other installations, would have to be moved in order to make more room. (Then again, it's still so much more space than there is through a certain sequence of corners on the new Baku street circuit.)

So, this would definitely result in a net loss of trees, no matter what, and it might require an expansion of the track's outer bounds. That being the case, I'm not assuming that this is set in stone, yet, thankfully.
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Old 28 May 2016, 21:35 (Ref:3645232)   #14
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I'm not sure if that's a compliment or not
I'll leave it open to interpretation.

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I'm not sure that that new Turn 1 would even be a lift; I think the teams might pile on more downforce, with three additional corners that will make it matter, and that could make the new corner flat-out. . .
+1

Now, having stolen SBF's map, I present a plethora of variations.

The purple solution removes the current T1 chicane for the cars (bikes would still need a one I suspect) but adds a chicane mid-Curva Grande (I believe Mexico City had something vaguely similar at one point).

The crimson solution uses the T1 from the junior circuit and runs up to Variente Ascari before merging into the old Pirelli test course. From here the teal solution calls for running straight before merging into the current course at the end of Curva Grande, the orange solution merges into the latter half of SBF's proposal, or the second half of the green solution largely follows the old Pirelli test course.

The teal solution was my original interpretation of the description of the changes, with the course beelining to the old Pirelli course then shooting across to rejoin after Curva Grande.

The green solution, like SBF's, sweeps outside the banking before merging into the Pirelli test course, which it largely follows before merging into the final corner of SBF's solution.
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Old 31 May 2016, 07:30 (Ref:3645977)   #15
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Sorry guys, but I refuse to inflict on Monza what Bernie and Hermann did to Hockenheim.
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