Teams question Williams and Toyota rear diffuser legality...

Sodemo · 28 Jan 2009, 18:39 (Ref:2381598)

Apparently several teams including Renault have sought clairification on the design of the rear diffusers on the Toyota and Williams cars...

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/73038

I think if they rule against this it will really hurt Williams whom dont really have the spare cash to hurridly re-develop the rear of their car.
Lets hope its cleared and the rest can "copy".

TF1 Fan · 28 Jan 2009, 21:22 (Ref:2381679)

Lets hope they are legal, good on Toyota and Williams for having something different.

**Bononi** · 28 Jan 2009, 23:12 (Ref:2381745)

Nice, it will be legal I'm sure.

Spaced Invader · 29 Jan 2009, 00:09 (Ref:2381772)

for williams sake and the current climate with them having spent a ton of dosh on it i hope its legal...

F.O.F. · 29 Jan 2009, 00:19 (Ref:2381777)

I love to see stuff like this in F1,I hope they're found to be legal...and ferrari thought they were clever with their "wing mirrors"

Marbot · 29 Jan 2009, 01:54 (Ref:2381809)

I hope something comes along to 'diffuse' the situation.....I'll get me coat.

I've no doubt that they will be banned because one team or another (no names) can't incorporate said idea into their chassis.

JeremySmith · 29 Jan 2009, 02:34 (Ref:2381824)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marbot

I hope something comes along to 'diffuse' the situation.....I'll get me coat.

I've no doubt that they will be banned because one team or another (no names) can't incorporate said idea into their chassis.

Don't leave...It will be sorted I am sure.

Malfunction Junction · 29 Jan 2009, 02:49 (Ref:2381831)

2 things spring to mind;

1) In 1996, with the raised cockpit sides, Williams, McLaren and Jordan(have I got the right teams?) interpreted the rules differently to everybody else and produced a car with a relatively low side protection structure. Consequently everything else looked like a barge and drove accordingly. This was questioned at the first race and found legal.

2) Rival teams have decided to pursue this now, rather than waiting until the first race. This tells me that they believe it probably is legal and they want the time to do their own version, rather than springing it in Melbourne, confident that they've made the right call.

Smokey 6 litre · 29 Jan 2009, 02:51 (Ref:2381832)

If the Ferrari wing mirror supports are legal then this must be as well, surely F1 opperates on a fair playing field and one team wouldn't be favoured by the rule makers...

JeremySmith · 29 Jan 2009, 02:54 (Ref:2381833)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Smokey 6 litre

If the Ferrari wing mirror supports are legal then this must be as well, surely F1 opperates on a fair playing field and one team wouldn't be favoured by the rule makers...

That would never happen...

browney · 29 Jan 2009, 05:23 (Ref:2381857)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Smokey 6 litre

If the Ferrari wing mirror supports are legal then this must be as well

Why? I don't know the aero rules at all well but these seem like such different parts of the car I can't imagine that there is the same issue with both of them that the legality of one determins the other?

**Peter Mallett** · 29 Jan 2009, 05:49 (Ref:2381865)

This is relevant:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Autosport

An outright question about the legality of a rival car can only be lodged on a grand prix weekend, when a protest would need to be handed in to the race stewards.

So Malfunction and others may well be right. This is being questioned so that other teams can take advantage before Melbourne. Bit of a shame really.

Smokey 6 litre · 29 Jan 2009, 06:52 (Ref:2381882)

Quote:

Originally Posted by browney

Why? I don't know the aero rules at all well but these seem like such different parts of the car I can't imagine that there is the same issue with both of them that the legality of one determins the other?

There should be no comparison between the two, but seeing as it all comes down to interpritation rather than ruling to what the majority of the teams come up with, its in exactly the same grey area of ruling which is one of the small areas left for real design innovation.

Sodemo · 29 Jan 2009, 07:42 (Ref:2381891)

So something ruled to be legal by the FIA could be deemed illegal by the race stewards?

VIVA GT · 29 Jan 2009, 08:17 (Ref:2381901)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sodemo

So something ruled to be legal by the FIA could be deemed illegal by the race stewards?

I'm sure this has happened before...

Maccafan · 29 Jan 2009, 10:45 (Ref:2381966)

I hope they are legal. This is what race car designers do. Find loop-holes or grey areas in the rules and exploit them. If they didn't then we certainly wouldn't have cars like we do now.

Well done to Williams for finding something like that before a lot of the manufacturer teams with a lot larger budgets did.

Marbot · 31 Jan 2009, 18:08 (Ref:2383314)

Someone from Autosport tries to explain it all.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/73083

Are we any wiser I wonder? Although it is fairly obvious what is going on by looking at the diagrams.

RotorFan · 3 Feb 2009, 01:37 (Ref:2387055)

It sucks that other teams found out about it. It would have been nice to have the cars different for at least one race.

I don't understand why they consult with the FIA over grey areas. If it adheres to the rules, they should just run it.

FPV GTHO · 3 Feb 2009, 04:49 (Ref:2387100)

Isnt the idea of it being a grey area that the ruling could go either way? If it was clearly legal then it wouldnt be much of a grey area

Maccafan · 3 Feb 2009, 16:45 (Ref:2387552)

If there's no rule that say's it's illegal, then leave it the hell alone. It shouldn't need clarification.

We have some of the greatest car designers in the world working on these cars, and their talents are constantly stifled. Let them get on with it.

Rant over.

Kempi · 4 Feb 2009, 08:06 (Ref:2387954)

Quote:

If there's no rule that say's it's illegal,

But that's exactly the question, isn't it? We have a rule, that needs interpretation (as any rule, law, provision, statute in the world). This interpretation is discussed right now with various arguments. So we cannot say yet that we do not have a rule that says it is illegal.

Chiefy · 4 Feb 2009, 10:03 (Ref:2388021)

Surely if the other teams just "copied" by producing their own versions, then everybody would be in the same boat and clarification would be superfluous.

JeremySmith · 5 Feb 2009, 01:42 (Ref:2388620)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Maccafan

If there's no rule that say's it's illegal, then leave it the hell alone. It shouldn't need clarification.

We have some of the greatest car designers in the world working on these cars, and their talents are constantly stifled. Let them get on with it.

Rant over.

Well okay then...First of all welcome to the forum

Now that you are calm, I hope you enjoy posting here!

Sodemo · 5 Feb 2009, 19:03 (Ref:2389256)

Its been ruled legal.

Game on.

Devilsadvocate · 5 Feb 2009, 20:17 (Ref:2389307)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sodemo

Its been ruled legal.

Game on.

But as Max points out, it does not mean the stewards in Australia might think differently. So rather than save money Max is prepared to allow other teams to copy this design between now and Australia but allow it to be banned then.

Personally, I think Max is playing a game. He is deliberately sticking to the rule book to annoy people. He knows he can use this as an example of the type of issue that is less likely to happen under a "spec" series F1.

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