Ideas for changes at LM

[dretceterini]

This year has become a fiasco, So I thought It might be a good idea for people to post the changes they would like to see.

I suggest for 2005 and beyond, NO prequalifying and no automatic entries due to results in the ALMS or ELMS.

What I suggest is this:
In the middle of May open practice and testing for 3 consecutive days. Anyone can enter. This is to set up the cars. Times really don't matter much.

Entire week before the race (or maybe 3 days). Open qualifying. Anyone can enter. The top 10 cars in each class are automatically in the race. The next 20 fast times, regardless of class, make up the rest of the grid; a total of 60 cars.

Anyone who withdraws after qualifying is given a 10,000 pound penalty, and can not run at LeMans for 2 years, and can never run again if the penalty isn't paid!

THOUGHTS PLEASE!!

[19dodge]

good idea, but i like mine better..

still have the auto entries for LMES, ALMS, and the top 2 finishers in each class from the previous season at Le Mans.

the rest of the field would go to pre qaulifying in April. The cars have to be race chassis with the race spec engines they want to use for Wednesday/thurs in LM race weekend. They pre quailfy. Anyone with an auto entry doesnt have to go to this pre qual session. If they do , their times will not count. The ACO takes the top 10 in LMP1, top 5 in LMP2, top 8 in GTS and top 10 in GT. all those guys get in. thats 34 entries. another appx 8-10 auto entries will get in. the rest of the entries will be based on "wild card" teams who have been coming to Le Mans for years, but didnt find the speed in PQ. you would put them in first. these would be teams like Autocon, who have run endurance races before. they are on the slower side, but are reliable.. Then you would select 6 reserve cars based on newer teams. Teams like Spinaker.. If they get in, lucky them. The next year they compete, they will get a much more fair chance. (if they are still slow) estabolished teams need to get into the races...

[dretceterini]

I tried to make the process as easy as possible. Your idea is OK, but considerably more complicated.

[paul-collins]

When sportscar racing is awash in funds, open qualifying will work. Until then, you need to have a priority list so that teams can ensure their funding is in place. This is particularly true of North American teams, as the logistical costs would be high for anyone not guaranteed an entry.

I think that prequalifying is a good idea, and merit should be based on results, followed by dedication to the event (ie acceptance of the entry). That said, I fail to see why qualifying at Le Mans in a dedicated qualifying event is better than qualifying at, for example, Sebring via performance at an actual race, where cost of the entry into the race is justified on its own terms already.

[PascaLM]

This thread is a good idea.
your propositions are interesting, but there are local technical problems :
- the circuit uses opened roads, and ACO has to ask the authorization to the "département" of la Sarthe in order to close the roads. That's the reason why there is now only one day of PQ instead of two, some years ago.
- the logistic problems inherent in the limited number of pits (50 and 55 in one or two years), should force the ACO to limit the number of cars (60, 70 ?).

So, what to do ?
Maybe taking the cars with the best series of 10 laps, which links speed and reliability,( this means at least two days). Mixing these performances with a number of points
chosen among the last results, the technical innovation, for instance.
Teams which never race before or which are not able to prove that they have engines, infrastructure etc., should not be on the final entry list.
All this is to be detailed.

Others thoughts ?

[Nordic]

I am against automatic entrys form series other than the Le Mans race its self. It has been proven year after year the these are taken up, then as the race nears the team pulls out.

I think the only automatic entrys should be 1 and 2nd from each class. That would give you 8 cars.

These along with 52 others would go to the Pre Qs (these are required by the FIA since the mercs took off)

The problem comes in deciding who the 52 others are.
There should be an equal number of entrys from each class (15 including those granted a bye) if there is a short fall in any class then it could be taken up by another on a first come fisrt served basis.
Each of the 13 non automatic entrys should be decided by the aco, based on a ballot of all the entrys recived for each class once the dreamers have been taken out.

Then the fastest from each class go through to the june race.

This is far from prefect, but would remove the accuastions of national baise and keep the entry fresh.

OR

We could go back to the old system where the 24hr is part of a strong world championship, that has harmoised the daft rule differances across the world, entry given first to those entered in it the rest invitee's thus giving a chance to new teams.
That may work

[dretceterini]

Why should there be any "automatic entries" at LeMans? At other venues, you qualify for that particular race. I see no real reason to make LeMans any different.

[Nordic]

For no other reason than to defend their crown.

[Aysedasi]

Originally posted by dretceterini
Why should there be any "automatic entries" at LeMans? At other venues, you qualify for that particular race. I see no real reason to make LeMans any different.

Because, like it or not, Le Mans is different. Its the one sportscar race that really matters. If the ACO didn't invite the winners of previous races, classes etc., they'd be on he invite list anyway. No one of us will evere influence the ACOs thinking. Its not generally the auto entries which lets us down. Did Spinnaker have an auto entry..... No, its those with money (or so they thought) and influence who need to look to their laurels.

[rdjones]

Personally I for automatic entrys. I agree with Nordic, that automatic entrys should be 1 and 2nd from each class should be invited back the year after.

But I think you have to give some automatic entries to teams from the ALMS and the LMES too after all these guys support sportscar racing on a weekly basis.

[Félix]

I wasn't really around five years ago, but how did the prequalifying work in '99 and earlier? The 99 field was just great, and "slower" cars like the very old 333 or the 962-engine Courage could still get in. But there wasn't any WR or French Porsche in the race I think.

The ACO will be very unhappy to change its way of doing things following suggestions, even if almost everybody's unanimous. They certainly won't come back to what worked 5 years ago if they have any other choice; the organisation is getting old and INEFFICIENT. Just look at what they're doing with the Creation DBA that's ready to race and fill an empty spot. Their excuse is that the rules say you have to test first. Another Zytek tested, the said car finished Le Mans last year (i think?), and still... Even worst, the Courages are allowed to switch engines, contradicting a big No-No written in bold letters in the rulebook! I might be hated for that, but I think the FIA can't do worst; too bad it's not their race...

Still, some top drivers are intentionnaly skipping the race in favor of another great 24. Looks like Timo Bernhard just didn't want to be part of the Porsche parade.

[simon c]

i'd put lmp2 in the bin, or as class in GrandAm racing

i'd get rid of the stalag fences, or certainly remove every other pillar. you can't see much like you could pre-96

i'd have the hawaiian tropic girls naked

i'd tell konrad to enter two saleens and give the driver combos as "beltoise / jassaud / malcher" and "jarier / arnoux / alliot" - guaranteed entry.

[paul-collins]

I note that all those who are for open qualifying exclusively aren't from North America.

How do you propose that teams come up with the logistics budget for a crapshoot 1-day qualifying? I mean, factory teams will have the funds, and EuroUnion teams will have an easy-ish travel. But what about Intersport? Or, better yet, a small team like AutoCon, who might have to drum up their full season funds based on the exposure of Le Mans, and then if they have something go wrong (like, say, Taurus or TVR did) on the one day, they can't get qualified? (I know, AutoCon weren't depending on it - but maybe some of the LMP2 teams that have since folded were...)

When sportscar racing is able to draw the money they did in the '80s, fine, go to full-out qualifying. But it's just not tenable in the current climate.

I'm all for the current rewards system. Let the remaining spots be earned, too, I say.

What I'm not in favour of is invites to non-automatic entries.

Here's a list of all withdrawals:

PROTOTYPE "LM" P1
3 ARENA INTERNATIONAL MOTORSPORT GBR LMP 900 DOME MUGEN 4000A
7 SPINNAKER CLANDESTEAM ITA LMP 900 DALLARA JUDD 4000A

PROTOTYPE "LM" P2
33 COURAGE COMPETITION FRA LM P2 COURAGE JPX 3400A
35 EPSILON SPORT FRA LM P2 COURAGE JPX 3400A

GRAND TOURISME ("LM" GTS)
60 FORCE ONE RACING FRA LM GTS PAGANI ZONDA 6916A
67 * CARE RACING GBR LM GTS FERRARI 550 MARANELLO 5853A
68 * BMS SCUDERIA ITALIA ITA LM GTS FERRARI 550 MARANELLO 5853A

GRAND TOURISME
95 * RISI COMPETIZIONE USA LM GT FERRARI 360 MODENA 3586A
* Pre-selected Competitors

RESERVE CARS
99 XL RACING FRA LM GT FERRARI 550 MARANELLO 5474A

Extra Reserve:
?? KONRAD MOTORSPORT DEU GTS SALEEN S7-R 6886A

Note that of the automatic entries withdrawn, one was Care (they had three automatic entries, which shows there was some absurd crossover this year), one was BMS and one was Risi. (As an aside, there was also XL on the withdrawal list. Maybe they should just ban Ferrari and be done with it!)

Automatic entries did not screw up the entry list this year. It was the others (Arena, Spinnaker, JPX) who did it.

Also, you can't blame Konrad.

[jhansen]

Ayse is right. Le Mans IS different. The winner of the Indianapolis 500 CAN return next year to defend his crown. He's just not guarenteed a spot in. It's just different. Daytona runs the twin 125's for the 500, totally different than the rest of the year. These differences make the big events special.

As for guarenteed entries, I'd only give out one for each class winner.

I would dump Pre-Q. Even from a safety stand point it makes no sense to me.

Open the entries up to the first 72 (or whatever number) received. Most likely it would be determined by logistics and facilities. This is fair and means you will get teams that are well prepared and have the ability to plan ahead. Entries per class would also have to be governed.

Straight up qualifying. Only the best get in (and the four auto entries). Field is set. Have a reserve or two per class for race day.

Then go racing for 24 Hours baby!

[jhansen]

Paul, I'm not sure I see a difference between a team like Spinnaker, which was on the list, at Pre-Q, and then withdrew from the race weeks away from it, or a small team from North America submitting an entry on time only to forfit it due to lack of funds, or failing to qualify through my system. Show me the difference. At least if qualifying was straight up a team like Autocon could submit an entry, work on fundraising up till June, and then have a shot at making it.

[Tim Northcutt]

I have two ways to possibly do it.....I'll submit the first one in this post, and follow it up with my second one...because I fell that both would have some merit....depending on what direction you choose to view it:

But first, some parameters that I feel must be "given" to a degree in order to make any plan have the flexibility needed to accommodate new cars, new teams, etc., who might not otherwise get a shot at Le Mans if a rigid format was adopted...

1. I feel that automatic bids for the top 2 in each class at LM from the previous year, plus at least the 4 class champions for the ALMS and LMES seasons should get "Automatic Bids"....a defending champ or runner-up in class "earned" a return trip....and the Season Champions in classes "earned" an opportunity to compete by getting winning results over the long haul, and by supporting their respective racing series that feeds LM...

2. Some sort of objective and measurable "performance-based" element must be part of selecting an additional, sizable number of competitors....the actual numbers could vary depending on whether or not someone felt that more than the Season Class Champs should be included from ALMS and LMES....

The first one I will propose in this post, and the second will be in the next....because I like being able to reward good performance as well as season long support for the ALMS or LMES, or FIA-GT, or JGTC, or the old FIA-SCC (it is defunct, but you get the idea...long-tern commitment to sportscar competition) or whatever series one races in...

3. some form of "At Large" invite process to fill the rest of the spots, that would allow the ACO to have some flexibility to invite new cars, newly-formed viable teams, new concepts like the bio-fueled cars, hybrids, turbo-diesels, etc...

This Is Plan #1: The weighted points system

1. Automatic bids would total 16 -- as noted in the introduction....

2. Select additional competitors (28 total) based on a weighted, equitable "International Racing" points scale that would uses as criteria issues such as distance of the races, number of total competitors, number of competitors in class, and strength of competition itself in those events....the final one can be done based on looking at entry lists, seeing who was in those races, and calcualting thier aggregate scores based on the system below, and factoring that into the final tally....many leagues do this via computer...it is not difficult...

Obviously, exclude those who are already "Automatically In", so that they are not duplicated in the total LM field count, but use their aggregate number to be part of the Strength of Competition, number of competitiors etc weighting elements...

The points and weight (percentages that these will be calculated at for the total score for a competitor) would be based on the following:

-- Major events like a 12 hrs of Sebring, Petit Le Mans, Le Mans itself, the Spa 24 hrs, the Nurbrugring 24 hrs, Bathurst, any major JGTC events, etc. (for various classes) could be rated in the highest categories of weight and points.....

-- To be fair the the LMES competitors, since they have only four events, the 1000K races could carry the next level of points and weight due to distance, number of competitors in their events, etc.,

-- ALMS races of 500 mi. (like Road America) or the 4 hr. event at Laguna Seca could be weighted either as the same level as the LMES events, or slightly lower since they are slightly shorter in time and distance....longer FIA-GT, JGTC, events that are not he ones noted above in the first scenario could fall under this as well...

-- Then the final tier of weight and points could be assigned to events that are like the 2 hr., 45 min. ALMS races, the 2 hr, 30 min. races that the FIA-SCC ran last year, etc...

If you assigned values or point scales to include critieria like total distance of the race, number of total competitors in the event, number of cars within class, strength of competition in class, or other things of this nature, a fairly reasonable and equitable scorecard could be established to determine those who would or could be "worthy" of running at Le Mans....

Professional Golf does this for many different Por Tours around the world to determine who gets "invited" or "earns" and invite to The Masters, or the British Open....

If Golf can do it, so can Sportscars....

3. The final 6 competitors can be chosen "At Large" by the ACO, and they also would select at least 8 "Reserves" to go to the "Test Days"

NOTE: If ANY "Automatic Bids" are not accepted or used, like Dyson and Pescarolo did this year, those slots automatically become part of the process in #2...NOT area #3....let's reward those who compete and support their respective racing series, and those who finished well enough from race to race to earn enough points for consideration....

That's one approach

[jhansen]

Now that's the kind of mammoth Tim Northcutt post we all know and love!



And it's only part 1!

[dretceterini]

To my mind LeMans is the most important race in the world, so I really don't care who won a previous ALMS or ELMS round the year before, or even a round as recently as a month before LeMans.

The best sportscars in the world AT THE TIME OF LEMANS should be the ones in the race. That's why I suggested a 3 day testing and practice session a month or so before the race, and from 3 days to a week of actual qualifying the week before the race itself.

[Liz]

The really big elephant in the parlour is that the ACO are French, and they have their own ideas how things should be done and they are not going to change them.

But assuming that suddenly they were willing to change their qualifying regulations, I would find some way for the teams to attend Pre-Q that was not held in the run-up to their own racing seasons -- so they would not have to simultaneously prepare to race in the ALMS and Le Mans, which could break the bank for the mid to smaller sized teams.

Then I would find a way to negate the advantage or disadvantage of nationality; that is, nobody would be included because he was from a certain country and nobody would be excluded because he was from a country that the organizers didn't currently like. The field should be chosen purely on merit, and if that means 50% of the field are German and only one car is French, that's the way it goes. Also, anybody with really ugly paint schemes would have demerit points.

Finally, there would have to be a clause in the regulations that Shane Lewis must have a decent drive.

[paul-collins]

Originally posted by jhansen
Paul, I'm not sure I see a difference between a team like Spinnaker, which was on the list, at Pre-Q, and then withdrew from the race weeks away from it, or a small team from North America submitting an entry on time only to forfit it due to lack of funds, or failing to qualify through my system. Show me the difference. At least if qualifying was straight up a team like Autocon could submit an entry, work on fundraising up till June, and then have a shot at making it.

I guess the reason I'm sticking with automatic entries is that I don't believe the ACO will ever get rid of "Test Days" as a requirement. So long as they try to block off 6 (or, like this year, 7!) weeks in May and June, they're requiring that teams have funding for two trips - one of which might not even happen, and which would be the lynchpin of the whole funding effort!

If LM were to go to a 2-week qualifying run-up (since there would be more cars to scrutineer, more drivers to qualify, and then more cars to qualify) I'd accept full-on qualifying.

However, another thing needs to be explored - with the long straights and specific aero needs of teams for this circuit, would they accept the loss of Test Days?

[jhansen]

Just to clarify, I would have scrutineering on Saturday and Sunday, practice Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, qualifications on Thursday, two two-hour sessions, and then race on Saturday and Sunday. That way money is not spent on attending Pre-Q (which has to be inconvenient for NA teams). And as Liz pointed out, it would not impede the ALMS season. Another reason why I took it out in my scenario.

[Tim Northcutt]

Plan #2 keeps the "Automatic Bids" from above (16 total) and the 6 "At Large" choices by the ACO the same....

But Plan #2 incorporates a "Regional Qualifying" Process into the Mix, that would determine the "28 Earned Bids" plus the "8 Reserves"

Here is how it might work:

Any and all Possible entries by class that wish to be considered for Le Mans must run in a "Regional Pre-Qualifying" round held at the longest or most prestigious circuits in their area of the world:

North America -- Held in Mid-April at any of the longer circuits, such as Sebring, Road America, VIR, or others you want to suggest...

Europe -- Held in Mid-April at a place like Spa, Paul Ricard, or any other course that might be a "long" or "longer" circuit like the teams will run over here....

If Asia gets cranked up with Manufacturers getting back in it, or JGTC teams that would conform to ACO rules in some way...

ASIA -- Mid-April sessions at any choice of circuits you feel would meet what I'm trying to do in the other two parts of the world....


These "Regional Qualifiers" would be Wed.-Sun. events...

Wed. - Scrutineeering
Thurs. - Practice
Fri. -- a.m. Practice, & p.m. "Qualifying" to determine starting order for "Twin Sprint Races" on Saturday to set Sunday's "Final Field"

Sat. -- "Twin Sprint Qualifiers" -- Like the Daytona NASCAR "Twin 125s"

all "odd numbered" qualifying spots (1st, 3rd, 5th, etc) from friday's session line up in their own "Sprint Race Grid" for the first 200 mile race.....

all "even numbered" qualifying spots from friday (2nd, 4th, etc.) are put on a grid for the 2nd "Sprint Race"...

The Top 5 in each class from the two "Sprint Races", plus 12 "Wild Cards" to be determined by overall speeds from the friday sessions and/or race results from the "Sprints" will race in a 500 miler on Sunday

Sunday -- The 500-miler, with the Top four in Each Class Going to Le Mans for "Test Days" in 2-3 weeks...

48 total cars from these three "reagional Qualifiers" would go to Test Days to vie for the 28 "earned bids" plus 8 reserves...

all even

[jhansen]

Love the regional qualification idea Tim! Leave it to you to come up with something equitable. Not sure about running the twin qualifiers at the race. But that's a minor detail. I'd make the regional events three days with one scrutineering day to save costs. ALMS gets it done that way, and so was the Monza LMES round. Actually, in the case of NA, you could even make it a points round for the ALMS. That way you're not left with a limited field.

[Tim Northcutt]

Originally posted by jhansen
Love the regional qualification idea Tim! Leave it to you to come up with something equitable. Not sure about running the twin qualifiers at the race. But that's a minor detail. I'd make the regional events three days with one scrutineering day to save costs. ALMS gets it done that way, and so was the Monza LMES round.

The reason why I have the twin qualifiers would be to accommodate a possibly very large field of competitors un future years...

as an example...let's say Europe has a big turnout from LMES regulars, plus some FIA-GT and N-GT teams, plus ome of the "one-event only" entries like a Bentley or the Factory Courage, etc....

That's a lot of cars to process, qualify, and then ultimately race...

I think that the Daytona 500 process is one thing that NASCAR definitely does right....a ton of competitors get their "laps" to show speed, plus a shorter race to show what they can do in racing conditions to "earn" a spot in the big event....

By doing it this way, you would cut away any "pretenders" for sure in those first two sessions before getting to the 500-miler....where the best cars ought to be duking it out....

But not going through a cut process, in a place like Europe you could have 65-70 cars on the grid....I don't know how ebenficial that would be to the process....

Plus the fans would really get something unique and a really fun racing weekend that carries big implications...the opportunity to move on the La Sarthe to earn a spot in the Le Mans field....

and those "Twin Sprints" would create some wild racing action kinda like the qualifiers do in sprinters and midgets to get to the "Main Race" of the night....


You gotta admit....once those wheels start turning in my mind the result is usually some cross between "P.T. Barnum" and "Quantum Physics"....

But I think either system would actually work....

and at least competitors would know that the overwhelming majority of the Le Mans field is there because of what they did on the race track...

That's one point you can't really argue against....

[Félix]

I too love the regional qualifications; we would get the surprise on how American and Japanease team compare to European teams after winning their local races. It would be clear that some local winners would be behind the 5th Euro runner in the qualifying session at Le Mans... much more speculation, surprises on race week and a great support to the various international-LMSeries. Stephane Ratel could organize such a pre-q race in all of the (numerous) series he manages... but he's on the FIA's side.

Crappy teams just wouldn't get trought an endurance pre-qualifier, but we need to find a way to include teams that may fail to finish that race because of accidents or other things. It would still have to be about discretionnary decision to "draft-pick" part of the grid that didn't do so well at the pre-q. Maybe voting on the lemans.org website, or a reality show? I seem to remember great cars like the Ligier JS2 won the Le Mans 4 hour race that was the prequalifing event at that time...