Tobacco Advertising on Historic Racing Cars

[Steve Wilkinson]

On Sunday at Loton Park there was a bit of an incident as two Lotus 61 FF1600 cars taking part in the Paul Matty Sports Cars Lotus Championship were told to cover up the Gold Leaf Team Lotus decals on their cars. The reason given was that these cars did not carry such advertising in period being run by the Jim Russell Racing School and being painted in traditional Green with a Yellow stripe.

So how do the cars in the Derek Bell series get away with it?

[johngee]

I don't have the regulations to hand but, as I remember it, if the actual car ran with the livery, it's acceptable. It's not accptable merely for it to be the same type of car that ran with the livery.
I'm sure somebody will correct me if my memory/understanding is at fault

[Steve Wilkinson]

Originally Posted by johngee

I don't have the regulations to hand but, as I remember it, if the actual car ran with the livery, it's acceptable. It's not accptable merely for it to be the same type of car that ran with the livery.
I'm sure somebody will correct me if my memory/understanding is at fault

So how come the car below in John Turner's photo is allowed to run Marlboro stickers?

[johngee]

Originally Posted by Steve Wilkinson

So how come the car below in John Turner's photo is allowed to run Marlboro stickers?

As a politician would say "I'm really glad you asked that question but I can't comment on individual cases"
I'll look up the regulation tonight

[rbs]

There was a Lotus 69 running in the F3 race at Silverstone last weekend also in GLTL colours, this was the ex Harald Ertl car so that would not have worn those colours in its day.

[Tainan]

Originally Posted by johngee

I don't have the regulations to hand but, as I remember it, if the actual car ran with the livery, it's acceptable. It's not accptable merely for it to be the same type of car that ran with the livery.
I'm sure somebody will correct me if my memory/understanding is at fault

This is what the MSA told me, and I think you need FIA papers to prove it ran the livery in period.

[James Murray]

Article 5.1 FIA Appendix K:-

"Any car which can be proved by way of history through its chassis number to have run in a particular livery (eg Gulf Porsche; L&M Lola;JPS Lotus etc) will be allowed to continue to display this livery, provided that its in the same colours and that the logos are the original size."

I obtained a photo of the car when it was driven by Silvio Moser in 1971 and copied the livery as I quite liked it. I've no idea whether the decals I obtained are exactly the same size as the original and quite frankly I don't care as they're near enough identical.

I guess the answer to your question is self evident from Article 5.1, and the Lotus 61's cant run that livery. All very draconian and nanny state bulls...t (excuse the oxymoron) if you ask me.

[johngee]

Originally Posted by James Murray

Article 5.1 FIA Appendix K:-

"Any car which can be proved by way of history through its chassis number to have run in a particular livery (eg Gulf Porsche; L&M Lola;JPS Lotus etc) will be allowed to continue to display this livery, provided that its in the same colours and that the logos are the original size."

Thanks James - saved me looking it up.

I guess the answer to your question is self evident from Article 5.1, and the Lotus 61's cant run that livery. All very draconian and nanny state bulls...t (excuse the oxymoron) if you ask me.

You may think that - I couldn't possibly comment!

[David McKinney]

Originally Posted by James Murray

Article 5.1 FIA Appendix K:-
"Any car which can be proved by way of history....to have run in a particular livery....will be allowed to continue to display this livery...."

Which doesn't say anything about cars that didn't run in a particular livery in period doing so today

[Steve Wilkinson]

Originally Posted by David McKinney

Which doesn't say anything about cars that didn't run in a particular livery in period doing so today

Basically what you are saying is that a car can run in a specific livery only if that specific chassis ran in that livery in period.

So what would happen if an owner had his car painted in a particular livery (let's say Gold Leaf Team Lotus) but then runs the same size decals but with a slightly different logo e.g. Gold Lead Tame Lotus? As this is NOT advertising a tobacco product would he be all right?

[johngee]

Originally Posted by Steve Wilkinson

Basically what you are saying is that a car can run in a specific livery only if that specific chassis ran in that livery in period.

Yes Steve - that's what the rule effectively says.

So what would happen if an owner had his car painted in a particular livery (let's say Gold Leaf Team Lotus) but then runs the same size decals but with a slightly different logo e.g. Gold Lead Tame Lotus? As this is NOT advertising a tobacco product would he be all right?

That's an interesting idea. I do believe there is a precedent for this - a few years ago didn't McLaren livery their cars EAST as opposed to WEST (which is a tobacco product), in the same colour and style, to overcome the ban on tobacco advertising?

I guess it's one of those things which would have to be 'tested' by a protest or appeal going before the Motor Sports Council or the FIA.

[David McKinney]

I don't seem to have made myself clear
Unless there's more in (or after) Article 5.1 than James posted, it seems clear that a provably period GLTL car can run in GLTL colours today. But the rule does not say I can't run my non-GLTL car in GLTL colours
I'm sure the intention of the rule is to stop the latter scenario, but it doesn't actually say that

[PeterMorley]

Originally Posted by David McKinney

Which doesn't say anything about cars that didn't run in a particular livery in period doing so today

There is a preceding part of the ruling.

The advertising on Historic race cars is limited to a specific size and location (something like a 50 x 14 cm box near the race numbers).

That applies to all cars, BUT there is an exemption for cars running their original decorations (as per the text that has been quoted).

Just looked it up on FIA.com - 2.1.9 covers all cars, and 2.1.10 (as previously quoted) applies to period decorated cars.

2.1.9.1 Advertising will be confined to a maximum of one space of 50cm x 14cm along the top, and one along the bottom, of up to four of the competition numbers.
2.1.9.2 Advertising on two-seat and single-seat racing cars of Period G onwards: 1 x front and 1 x each side spaces, of not more than 700cm2 each, may be reserved for the event organiser’s advertising, the use of which the competitor may not refuse.
Furthermore, a total of 2100cm2 of additional advertising may be carried (with maxima of 700cm2 on the front and on each side), which may be divided into several stickers, each of which will be measured as the smallest rectangle which will contain it completely when calculating the total area.

etc etc

What it doesn't mention is whether Tobacco sponsorship is allowable - presumably that depends on the local law as it does in F1.

[johngee]

Originally Posted by David McKinney

I don't seem to have made myself clear
Unless there's more in (or after) Article 5.1 than James posted, it seems clear that a provably period GLTL car can run in GLTL colours today. But the rule does not say I can't run my non-GLTL car in GLTL colours
I'm sure the intention of the rule is to stop the latter scenario, but it doesn't actually say that

David - this is nothing to do with livery as such - it's about tobacco advertising. There's nothing to stop somebody running, say any Porsche 962 in Shell livery but you could only run one in Rothmans livery if it was the actual car verified by chassis number. If it's JUST a colour scheme, I guess that's a bit more problematic but as soon as you introduce decals etc. I believe you contravene the rules.
...............or am I missing your point?

[Steve Wilkinson]

Originally Posted by johngee

David - this is nothing to do with livery as such - it's about tobacco advertising. There's nothing to stop somebody running, say any Porsche 962 in Shell livery but you could only run one in Rothmans livery if it was the actual car verified by chassis number. If it's JUST a colour scheme, I guess that's a bit more problematic but as soon as you introduce decals etc. I believe you contravene the rules.
...............or am I missing your point?

I think you have stated the point.

It becomes problematic when the adverts go on the car. In fact there was a Lotus 59 FF1600 present at Loton Park which was in the GLTL livery (red/white/gold) but had NO Gold Leaf signage. This competitor was never approached by any official as his choice of colour scheme is irrelevant.

I wonder what would happen if someone turned up with a car carrying signage for an obscure tobacco company.

[johngee]

Originally Posted by Steve Wilkinson

I wonder what would happen if someone turned up with a car carrying signage for an obscure tobacco company.

I guess that would depend on the scrutineer's knowledge of obscure tobacco companies and their livery/signage
Do you remember the SKOL Bandit sponsored Porsche - that was chewing tobacco!

[Dan Rear]

SKOL was an absolutely dreadful lager IIRC, do you mean Skoal Bandit Tobacco? Mind you all lager is the devils p-ss as far as I'm concerned, and always has been.

[johngee]

Originally Posted by Dan Rear

SKOL was an absolutely dreadful lager IIRC, do you mean Skoal Bandit Tobacco? Mind you all lager is the devils p-ss as far as I'm concerned, and always has been.

Quite right Dan - my fading memory caused the mis-spelling!

[rbm]

Now this is only from memory, but didn't the MSA negotiate an exemption for historic race vehicles, from the tobacco advertising and promotion act 2002 http://www.opsi.gov.uk/ACTS/acts2002/20020036.htm#16 which has a maximum penalty of 2 years in prison.

I would guess that if the MSA cannot control the use on any old historic racer then all tobacco advertising even if period will have to be removed.

shame.

[johnh875]

Is it still advertising if the brand is no longer in existence? Surely some of the old ones must fall into that category by now

[Steve Wilkinson]

Originally Posted by johnh875

Is it still advertising if the brand is no longer in existence? Surely some of the old ones must fall into that category by now

Even if the tobacco company in question, or the brand, no longer exist it is still seen as promoting tobacco products!