[FIA GT] FIA GT1 / GT3 Silverstone 3-5 June

[rich07]

Originally Posted by Danny_GT2

Welcome to ten tenths Richard Westbrook! :P

Nice one Danny!

[F575]

Originally Posted by OldSinger

I suspect it's not just you...

Indeed he was all four off the track. Took this from Village B.



Though to be fair the Aston did run him wide to the edge anyway, he didn't have anywhere to go really. However, if you watch the video of the restart after the Safety car, Muller leaves the brakes off going into Luffield and basically pushes the Nissan round the corner, so they where both as bad as each other.

[marcosgt]

I'm amazed that anyone's sticking up for Mucke.

Whether you're a fan of his or not, that move was so far beyond 'ill-advised' or 'a racing incident' that nothing less than a ban (probably all season) seems acceptable.

I've quite liked Mucke in the past and most of his other incidents have been the result of over-ambitious passing moves, but that was a truculent display intended to intimidate Westbrook (whose passing attempt was untypically hamfisted, lest anyone thinks I'm on his side here) which was stupid and, as his temper affected his distance-judgement, potentially life threatening.

Ok, I don't suppose he meant to write off the cars or even collide with Westbrook, but that was the result of his stupid action which wasn't going to give him any racing advantage...

IMO, he needs time away from racing to reflect on his attitude.

M.

[Pandamasque]

Originally Posted by marcosgt

Ok, I don't suppose he meant to write off the cars or even collide with Westbrook, but that was the result of his stupid action which wasn't going to give him any racing advantage...

So deliberately running an opponent off the road is ok, and usually doesn't result in a penalty (Watson calls it 'racecraft'), but if you drive into another car by an accident (albeit while being very silly) you should be banned for a year?

A little consistency would be nice.

PS: Here's an example, the defending driver ran his opponent off the road for no reason. The Merc was out of control on the grass and was close killing a couple of marshals. Was the BMW driver banned? Don't think so.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Hgfj...layer_embedded

[Thin Green]

You cannot even begin to compare the two incidents.

One was an over-ambitious racing move which is very common.
The other was a deliberate desire to vent aggression at another driver with terrible consequences as it was so badly executed. Mucke should be banned on both accounts.

The film clip of the Merc on the grass: Did the BMW driver push him there? I cant tell from the clip. It seems more like the driver was trying to make a pass on the grass. Not uncommon: Johnny herbert did the same in an Audi R8 at Monza a few years back and Jean-Marc Gounon used to do it periodically at the start of a race. Sometimes JMG would pick up 6 or more places before the first corner. The definition of 'the track' has changed over the years.

A driver was once being interviewed after putting his car on Pole for a major race. The journo asked, "what was the track like?" The driver responded, "I don't know. I was hardly ever on it!"

[NightStalk3r]

More importantly in that video, why was the Merc trying to overtake under yellows, he should be given at least a fine.

[Pandamasque]

Originally Posted by Thin Green

The definition of 'the track' has changed over the years.

That's pure BS. The definition of track is in FIA Sporting Code for you to read (see appendix L, chapter IV). Anyone who doesn't know it shouldn't be allowed to go near racing car.

If anything, MS did that deliberately last year in Hungarian GP if front of everyone's eyes. That was a cold blooded attempt of murder and about a million times worse than Mucke's red mist and clumsiness. What was the penalty again? +10 grid spots.

@ NightStalk3r
he couldn't possibly see flags behind the BMW and the top of hill.

[marcosgt]

Originally Posted by Pandamasque

So deliberately running an opponent off the road is ok, and usually doesn't result in a penalty (Watson calls it 'racecraft'), but if you drive into another car by an accident (albeit while being very silly) you should be banned for a year?

A little consistency would be nice.

PS: Here's an example, the defending driver ran his opponent off the road for no reason. The Merc was out of control on the grass and was close killing a couple of marshals. Was the BMW driver banned? Don't think so.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Hgfj...layer_embedded

Well, you're seeing things differently to me.

There was no reason for the Merc that went off in your clip to do so.

He COULD have backed off rather than go on the grass, Mucke dive bombed the Nissan deliberately to intimidate, not to try and take a position (he could've done that easily by driving past since the Nissan was clearly moving slowly).

Once again I'm frankly stunned that anyone can support Mucke's behaviour.

Maybe the attempted pass on the Aston was ill-conceived and always doomed to failure, it always looked hopeless, but it was an attempt to pass, not an angry irrational attempt to get even, which has no place on the track.

Had Mucke been squeezing past and clipped the Nissan with both at racing speed, I'd agree with you, but the in car camera clearly shows he's wasting time given Westbrook the finger rather than driving a race car!

If you feel that sort of behaviour is acceptable, you have a very different idea of what professional motor racing should be about to me...

M

[Thin Green]

Originally Posted by Pandamasque

That's pure BS. The definition of track is in FIA Sporting Code for you to read (see appendix L, chapter IV). Anyone who doesn't know it shouldn't be allowed to go near racing car.

.

I guess that is why the ACO only started clarifying the 'track' a few years ago at LM drivers briefings. They even put up bollards to stop drivers from straightlining chicanes. (the bollards didnt last long!) The ACO then started penalising those who had all four wheels off the "track surface"--as defined by the ACO. All those professional drivers obviously didn't read that bit of the code--nor did the team managers or team owners.

In reality, the track is what a driver can use without receiving a penalty--not what it states in the FIA Sporting Code. That's racing. If you can pick up a second a lap by having all four wheels off of the 'Appendix L, Chapter IV track'--and get away with it, you do it. Every other driver will.

[Pandamasque]

Originally Posted by marcosgt

Had Mucke been squeezing past and clipped the Nissan with both at racing speed, I'd agree with you, but the in car camera clearly shows he's wasting time given Westbrook the finger rather than driving a race car!

If you feel that sort of behaviour is acceptable, you have a very different idea of what professional motor racing should be about to me...

Of course driving a damaged car so close to another damaged car at speed just to express your anger through the side window is not acceptable. I'm just saying he didn't crash into him deliberately.

[pauln]

Originally Posted by Thin Green

In reality, the track is what a driver can use without receiving a penalty--not what it states in the FIA Sporting Code. That's racing. If you can pick up a second a lap by having all four wheels off of the 'Appendix L, Chapter IV track'--and get away with it, you do it. Every other driver will.

The rules are there for a reason and shouldn't be broken without penalty. Drivers/teams have been penalised for this recently from Button in F1 at the start of the season to Will Bratt, who ended up disqualified from the Silverstone F2 round. I'd agree that there needs to be more consistency in application of penalties.

[alexkiller8]

mucke at le mans couldn't create dangers because scared about him and broke.....

[Thin Green]

Originally Posted by alexkiller8

mucke at le mans couldn't create dangers because scared about him and broke.....

AMR-One wasn't scared of Mucke. It believed it was a shopping car taking groceries from Carrefour to Arnage--and died of fright with all the fast traffic around it.

[cg7aa]

Originally Posted by Thin Green

AMR-One wasn't scared of Mucke. It believed it was a shopping car taking groceries from Carrefour to Arnage--and died of fright with all the fast traffic around it.

Boom! Aston will bounce back.

[Tim the Grey]

AMR1.

The car that died of shame.

Here's to a better car when they come back.