VLN V's GT2

[The Badger]

What are the differances between a Manthey 997 and a Felbermayr 997 please ?

I can see some aero differances , like the nice big wing ..... I understand you can fool about with the suspension a lot more too .

I also heard from one who knows , that a VLN 997 runs approx 7cm higher ride height (than a LMS spec997) , to counter all the track conditions , like himps and bumps .

Whats next ?

[arakis]

Originally Posted by The Badger

What are the differances between a Manthey 997 and a Felbermayr 997 please ?

I can see some aero differances , like the nice big wing ..... I understand you can fool about with the suspension a lot more too .

I also heard from one who knows , that a VLN 997 runs approx 7cm higher ride height (than a LMS spec997) , to counter all the track conditions , like himps and bumps .

Whats next ?

I think the restrictors are also bigger on the VLN cars, i think in the 30s range, while in ACO its 28s,also the weight is 1350 kg vs 1245kg in the aco

I'll look over the regs and post the engine and weight exact specs.

just had a quick look, but its all messed up in there, what I found was that 997 4l should get 2 X 29.5mm at 1250kg, while it gets 28.6mm in the gte class for the same weight. but i dodnt know what weight the RSR was run at at the ring.

[Speed-King]

There is no GT2 in VLN... The only classes that are run to outside regs are SP9 and SP10 for GT3 and GT4 cars.

For GT2s there are the various 24h-Spezial classes where they slot in according to displacement, mainly SP7 (up to 4l) and SP8 (4l-6.25l). However, the 24h-Spezial regulations don't allow the same things as GT2... there is more freedom in the aero department, but considerable restrictions as far as the general layout of the car is concerned, e.g. a car can only have a trans-axle style transmission if one is also found in the roadcar. Hence the BMW runs in E1XP, which is more or less a freestyle class, for cars that don't comply with the rules but are still considered attractive by the organizers.

That said, Farnbacher's Ferrari runs pretty close to LMS-specs in VLN, they use the same car in both and sometimes on back to back weekends.

[Deleted]

Here's something to look at...

[arakis]

Originally Posted by Speed-King

There is no GT2 in VLN... The only classes that are run to outside regs are SP9 and SP10 for GT3 and GT4 cars.

For GT2s there are the various 24h-Spezial classes where they slot in according to displacement, mainly SP7 (up to 4l) and SP8 (4l-6.25l). However, the 24h-Spezial regulations don't allow the same things as GT2... there is more freedom in the aero department, but considerable restrictions as far as the general layout of the car is concerned, e.g. a car can only have a trans-axle style transmission if one is also found in the roadcar. Hence the BMW runs in E1XP, which is more or less a freestyle class, for cars that don't comply with the rules but are still considered attractive by the organizers.

That said, Farnbacher's Ferrari runs pretty close to LMS-specs in VLN, they use the same car in both and sometimes on back to back weekends.

gte also inly alowes transaxle transmision only if the road car has it, well at least thats how the regs are writen.

[Spyderman]

...and then along come the waivers.

[arakis]

and waivers, and waivers.........

[Audi Racer]

and shopping carts.

[tux]

As long as the racings close and the cars are sexy it doesnt matter if a cars got 0 waivers or 100 waivers. Its all about the entertainment!

[Audi Racer]

Originally Posted by tux

As long as the racings close and the cars are sexy it doesnt matter if a cars got 0 waivers or 100 waivers. Its all about the entertainment!

Yeah. I don't know why they are so against the BMW. It's put on quite a show...It doesn't matter what waivers a car gets. the waivers are not random. they're ones that bring performance to a competitive level...Even though i unerstand your arguments about the marketing...at the same time who actually thinks that an M3 can beat the 911 and the 458......That kind of person isn;t very educated and probably cannot afford any of these cars. If you can afford one of these babies your smart enought to know which road car is fastest.

[arakis]

Originally Posted by tux

As long as the racings close and the cars are sexy it doesnt matter if a cars got 0 waivers or 100 waivers. Its all about the entertainment!

so we might just as well only watch gt3. that is stupid in my oppinion, I want to see manufacturers making a difference, not jut preaty cars run by BoP.

Do you feel the same about LMP1 as well.

[Spyderman]

We agree 100% Arakis!!

[Audi Racer]

Why is it that in GT they want to maintain a .5sec gap between the cars but in LMp they only want within 2% ?

Whats with the different standards

[arakis]

what anoyes me the most, is that most people feel as if the gte is there only to look preatty and the real battle is in the LMP1, but that is simply not true.

if you look ate the quality of the teams, the quality of the drivers, and the quality of the manufacturers and their involvement, it is way ahead of 99% of LMP1.

only Audi and Peaugeut are better, and they do only 3-5 races during the year, while GTE teams do over 10.

even in AUDI and Peaugeut the drivers are not on the same lvl. in both teams you have slow drivers, while in GTE the drivers in each car are all within a tenth of one another, in the same car.

while Audi and Peageut invest 100 times more cash into their project, the technology in the protypes is totly unusable for normal cars, even sports cars, and no matter how much audi and peaugeut try to market it as relevant it simply isn't.

[Audi Racer]

Originally Posted by arakis

so we might just as well only watch gt3. that is stupid in my oppinion, I want to see manufacturers making a difference, not jut preaty cars run by BoP.

Do you feel the same about LMP1 as well.

BoP only affects by a small margin. Lemans is the only track were those small margins are exacerbated due to the straights.

Theres alot more to enduro racing than your speed. Lets not forget BMW didn't win Lemans......

Regardless of BoP one car is always going to be the fastest.

Do you think the Porsche should get a slightly bigger restrictor(that requires BoP/Food for thought)....

Clearly without all the BoP the Ferrari 458 would dominate and all GT races would be boring....Do you want boring racing?? The Risi ferrari takes pole fastest lap and leads flag to flag. What kinda storyline is that?? Who wants to watch that? I hope you don't either

[arakis]

Originally Posted by Audi Racer

BoP only affects by a small margin. Lemans is the only track were those small margins are exacerbated due to the straights.

Theres alot more to enduro racing than your speed. Lets not forget BMW didn't win Lemans......

Regardless of BoP one car is always going to be the fastest.

Do you think the Porsche should get a slightly bigger restrictor(that requires BoP/Food for thought)....

Clearly without all the BoP the Ferrari 458 would dominate and all GT races would be boring....Do you want boring racing?? The Risi ferrari takes pole fastest lap and leads flag to flag. What kinda storyline is that?? Who wants to watch that? I hope you don't either

I do, even the porsche fans would have to admit that they would as well. because it would give more validity if and when the 991 came into the game, and maybe beat the 458.

like I said, when AUDI dominte its ok, everyone says of course they dominate, they have the best car. it sould be the same in GTE racing.

Althugh that would ruin the viewers interest in GTE racing, and thus probably implode it. But thats why I support the 0.5%, it a big enough margin to alow the best car to still come out on top, and provide exciting racing.
and with such a small margin, reliability comes into play, alowing the slower cars to win the faster ones by outlasting the faster ones.

[Audi Racer]

Originally Posted by arakis

what anoyes me the most, is that most people feel as if the gte is there only to look preatty and the real battle is in the LMP1, but that is simply not true.

if you look ate the quality of the teams, the quality of the drivers, and the quality of the manufacturers and their involvement, it is way ahead of 99% of LMP1.

only Audi and Peaugeut are better, and they do only 3-5 races during the year, while GTE teams do over 10.

even in AUDI and Peaugeut the drivers are not on the same lvl. in both teams you have slow drivers, while in GTE the drivers in each car are all within a tenth of one another, in the same car.

while Audi and Peageut invest 100 times more cash into their project, the technology in the protypes is totly unusable for normal cars, even sports cars, and no matter how much audi and peaugeut try to market it as relevant it simply isn't.

I only watch the ALMS to see the GTE battle nowadays. The same can't be said for alot of other viewer....



But also i do think your right about LMP1 technolgy being completely unusable.

didn;t the Audi Q7 get a variant of the V12 diesel from the R10 tdi.


Of all the classes i think GT as it stands as the most irrelevant in terms of road car technology........Its not hard to see why. In order to run the GT car you need to have the road car first. So the road car is already built. Theres no transfer of technology from GT to road cars. Its the other way around. Gt is based on the road car.


however in LMP1 they have free reign to test new technologies that tricke down to road cars. The particulate filters, electronics systems. i think the reason it is hard to see the tech transfer from LMP1 to road car is because they're soo secretive. do you think Audi will tell you the inner workings of their V6 TDI....They won;t talk about the inner workings of the VGT. but theyll put it in the road car.

[Audi Racer]

Originally Posted by arakis

I do, even the porsche fans would have to admit that they would as well. because it would give more validity if and when the 991 came into the game, and maybe beat the 458.

like I said, when AUDI dominte its ok, everyone says of course they dominate, they have the best car. it sould be the same in GTE racing.

Althugh that would ruin the viewers interest in GTE racing, and thus probably implode it. But thats why I support the 0.5%, it a big enough margin to alow the best car to still come out on top, and provide exciting racing.
and with such a small margin, reliability comes into play, alowing the slower cars to win the faster ones by outlasting the faster ones.

Validity of what? If a buy a porsche or a ferrari im going to drive it and then park it in my garage and then drive it again. On the rare day that i take my porsche to the track i'm not even a good enough driver, even if the porsche was better than the ferrari, to beat the ferrari. Those are the best drivers in the world in GT2. We are regular people that buy ferraris and porsche.

An excellent driver in a BMW M3 is going to beat a crappy driver in a 458 italia.......With us regular drivers the car isn;t going to make the difference in the race at trackday.....

I think your putting too much significance in Gt racing. A ferrari fan like you is not suddenly going to change allegiance. And Spyderman isn;t suddenyl going to buy a Ferrari.

There are so many variables in a race. Saying a ferrari beat a porsche does not tel lthe whole story...(did the porsche get a flat tire or accident? Was it seth neiman driving vs Jaime Melo).......

thers too many variables in GT racing to say that because a ferrari won it is better than the 911.

[arakis]

Originally Posted by Audi Racer

I only watch the ALMS to see the GTE battle nowadays. The same can't be said for alot of other viewer....



But also i do think your right about LMP1 technolgy being completely unusable.

didn;t the Audi Q7 get a variant of the V12 diesel from the R10 tdi.


Of all the classes i think GT as it stands as the most irrelevant in terms of road car technology........Its not hard to see why. In order to run the GT car you need to have the road car first. So the road car is already built. Theres no transfer of technology from GT to road cars. Its the other way around. Gt is based on the road car.


however in LMP1 they have free reign to test new technologies that tricke down to road cars. The particulate filters, electronics systems. i think the reas onare hard to see the tech transfer from LMP1 to road car is because they;re soo secretive. do you think Audi will tell you the inner workings of their V6 TDI....They won;t talk about the inner workings of the VGT. but theyll put it in the road car.

nope, you are wrong, there is enough freedom in GTE to alow serius improvements in road cars.

1st and not the least of witch is reliability, engine performance is pushed to the limits, so is the suspension. if you resd the rules you'll see, that a lot of stuff is free in the engine, the transmision is totly free if you keep it in the same position, and suspensi as well if you keep the same layout.

LMP1 cars are purpuse bulit sprinters that get bined after 30h, the engines are the same as F1s, it soesent matter if it last 5h or 30h, road car engines are ment to last 100,000 of miles.

and fuel consumption, the AUDI uses 37l for 100km, while an averige Audi road car diesel uses between 5-10l.

[Audi Racer]

In addition. Haven;t we already discussed that being the fastest GT2 car has more to do with the way the GT2 car i built rather than how the road car compares. The M3 road car cannot beat a 458 italia with the same driver driving both cars. However based on the way the GT2 car is built the BMW M3 GT2 can beat a 458 italia....

GT2 does not tell which manufacturer has the best car......Neither does F1......Neither does LMP1..

[arakis]

Originally Posted by Audi Racer

Validity of what? If a buy a porsche or a ferrari im going to drive it and then park it in my garage and then drive it again. On the rare day that i take my porsche to the track i'm not even a good enough driver, even if the porsche was better than the ferrari, to beat the ferrari. Those are the best drivers in the world in GT2. We are regular people that buy ferraris and porsche.

An excellent driver in a BMW M3 is going to beat a crappy driver in a 458 italia.......With us regular drivers the car isn;t going to make the difference in the race at trackday.....

I think your putting too much significance in Gt racing. A ferrari fan like you is not suddenly going to change allegiance. And Spyderman isn;t suddenyl going to buy a Ferrari.

There are so many variables in a race. Saying a ferrari beat a porsche does not tel lthe whole story...(did the porsche get a flat tire or accident? Was it seth neiman driving vs Jaime Melo).......

thers too many variables in GT racing to say that because a ferrari won it is better than the 911.

you are semi correct, in a single race you would be right, but when you have multiple works cars in mulltiple championships over a period of 4 years, you can gat a preaty good picture of withc is better

[Audi Racer]

Originally Posted by arakis

nope, you are wrong, there is enough freedom in GTE to alow serius improvements in road cars.

1st and not the least of witch is reliability, engine performance is pushed to the limits, so is the suspension. if you resd the rules you'll see, that a lot of stuff is free in the engine, the transmision is totly free if you keep it in the same position, and suspensi as well if you keep the same layout.

LMP1 cars are purpuse bulit sprinters that get bined after 30h, the engines are the same as F1s, it soesent matter if it last 5h or 30h, road car engines are ment to last 100,000 of miles.

and fuel consumption, the AUDI uses 37l for 100km, while an averige Audi road car diesel uses between 5-10l.

Reliability? If they are struggling with the road car engine reliabiliy. The last of their worries is building a GT2 car. Recalls are expensive.

In all the GT2 cars the parts bar the engine block/pistons get swapped out for racing versions of the identical part. they swap out the dampers and springs roll bars etc..

they put in a roll cage. The GT2 is supposed to have the same design as the road car. Not the same parts... they don't use the road car suspension in the race car(they swap it out for stronger version of the same part) i hope you don;t think that....

The 458 road car suspension was not meant to thrash curbs like the GT2 car does. same for all the other GT2 cars. They'es not really too much part transfer.


You don;t just get to mess with things like that during the season. The car might have to be rehomologated. Aren;t they only allowed one evolution per year?

Theyre not testing road car bits and pieces on the GT2 cars. The road car parts are much too feeble.

GT2 cars have manual clutches. They don;t have ABS and are banned from using alot of the Electronic Control systems found in the road car. that sounds pretty irrelevant to me.

The road car has ABS,ESC, and lots of aids. Those are things that if allowed would facilitate technology transfer.

[Audi Racer]

Originally Posted by arakis

you are semi correct, in a single race you would be right, but when you have multiple works cars in mulltiple championships over a period of 4 years, you can gat a preaty good picture of withc is better

The lotus evora road car is a very good car. So is the lamborghini road car. Just because the GT2 car is crap doesn't mean the road car is crap and will be walked on by 458's.

Like i said. Theyre too many variables related to preparation of the cars as well. Who has the stiffer chassis? Whoes on Michelin Tires, Whoes on Dunlop?, Whoes on Falken? to say that what you seein GT2 racing has any relvance to the pace of the road cars....

[Audi Racer]

The manufacturers think that people like you guys and me are dumb. And that we only see the face value of GT2. A bimmer beat a ferrari so the bimmer is better than the ferrari?? Thats not true and everyone knows that....

[arakis]

the back information from racecars is implimented in future road cars.
example. a tuner finds places that have room for improvement, and what they would want in the next road car, and a smart manufactirer listens to them. this is true for Ferrari, Porsche and Corvette.

the information from the race cars, has a lot of relevance on how future products might be improved.