|
||||||||||
|
||||||||||
19 Mar 2017, 07:09 (Ref:3719949) | #1251 | |
Veteran
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 522
|
You couldn't reduce the weight of the P3 without considerable redesign and costs so that's not even an option (a JSP3 is 930 out of the box). Power increase is going happen but again it'll further increase costs, so many will be apprehensive giving it the green light, but they need to get them to fill that big void left by the new p2.
|
|
|
19 Mar 2017, 10:03 (Ref:3719970) | #1252 | ||
Veteran
Join Date: Jan 2015
Posts: 1,864
|
Still a V8. Two cylinders more than allowed.
Last edited by FormulaFox; 19 Mar 2017 at 10:14. |
||
|
19 Mar 2017, 10:05 (Ref:3719971) | #1253 | ||
Veteran
Join Date: Jan 2015
Posts: 1,864
|
Oh, yes. It's faith. P3 is simply not priced to race on the level this series is meant to be at. Unless there's some major changes going forward, this will eventually become a problem. Keep in mind the series wasn't exactly strong(barely managing double-digit car counts) when it was just running the nice and cheap Elans.
Last edited by FormulaFox; 19 Mar 2017 at 10:18. |
||
|
19 Mar 2017, 10:07 (Ref:3719972) | #1254 | ||||
Veteran
Join Date: Jan 2015
Posts: 1,864
|
Quote:
Quote:
Last edited by FormulaFox; 19 Mar 2017 at 10:15. |
||||
|
19 Mar 2017, 10:18 (Ref:3719973) | #1255 | |||||
Veteran
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 7,325
|
Why? The cars are designed to a cost-cap and around a spec power-train. 'Adding lightness' costs a bunch of money that you can't recoup under a cost cap, especially when a large chunk of the car's weight (engine, transmission, etc) is out of range for any improvements anyway.
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
|
|||||
__________________
Ceterum censeo GTE-Am esse delendam. |
19 Mar 2017, 10:37 (Ref:3719979) | #1256 | |||||
Veteran
Join Date: Jan 2015
Posts: 1,864
|
Quote:
Quote:
1) Teams with weak finances won't want ANY changes that could increase their costs even the slightest bit. 2) Even teams with good finances will cry poverty to get their way(seriously, if all the teams that cried poverty over needing to buy new cars in 2017 had actually left, IMSA would have MAYBE four cars in Prototype). Without knowing how tight a budget things are for those teams, it's tough to use them as a gauge for how significant a change it would be. You'll notice the European teams don't seem bothered(enough to influence decision, anyway), so the issue is clearly something that's a bigger concern for Asian teams than European. Quote:
Last edited by FormulaFox; 19 Mar 2017 at 10:43. |
|||||
|
19 Mar 2017, 11:47 (Ref:3719986) | #1257 | ||||
Veteran
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 7,325
|
Quote:
Quote:
|
||||
__________________
Ceterum censeo GTE-Am esse delendam. |
19 Mar 2017, 12:14 (Ref:3719992) | #1258 | |
Veteran
Join Date: Nov 2014
Posts: 609
|
You can't really judge the LMP3 by the speed of the greybeards. Jamin, Gutierrez and Thompson were noticeably faster.
http://results.imsa.com/Results/17_2...03_Results.PDF (Jamin was almost 3 seconds quicker than Kyle Masson in the leading Elan) http://results.imsa.com/Results/17_2...03_Results.PDF |
|
|
19 Mar 2017, 12:49 (Ref:3719997) | #1259 | ||
Veteran
Join Date: Nov 2015
Posts: 2,997
|
Quote:
Completely true. Watch some of the ELMS races where Alex Brundle was in a United Ligier P3 They can move in the right hands It's unfair to say they are slow when the categories focus is Am or Pro Am combos |
||
|
19 Mar 2017, 17:54 (Ref:3720033) | #1260 | |
Veteran
Join Date: Nov 2013
Posts: 1,078
|
Cars with spec parts tend to get overbuilt and thus get more heavy then intended.
CN cars are great, but if they came in to replace the current lite car then they would use a spec engine from whatever manufacture decides to sponser it. Most likely Mazda. From the FIA. CN cars must have a engine source from a Group N class (aka touring cars) with a maximum of 3L and 6 cylinders. No racing engines allowed. They is some spec car series like the radical cup that use V8s however. |
|
|
19 Mar 2017, 18:11 (Ref:3720038) | #1261 | |||
Race Official
Veteran
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 18,739
|
Quote:
Quote:
|
|||
|
19 Mar 2017, 19:09 (Ref:3720041) | #1262 | |||
Veteran
Join Date: Jan 2015
Posts: 1,864
|
Quote:
In point of fact, when it comes to where you can race a CN car vs an LMP3, there's actually only two places you can run LMP3 and NOT CN right now; ELMS and IMSA Prototype Challenge. Every other series that runs prototype classes has both. The problem with those guys up front in IMSA, however, is that those speeds have generally been the exception rather than the rule. Only the absolute slowest P3 drivers should be anywhere near the lap times of the slower class. You can bet good money that if this was happening in the Weathertech series, IMSA would be doing something about it. Last edited by FormulaFox; 19 Mar 2017 at 19:16. |
|||
|
19 Mar 2017, 19:11 (Ref:3720042) | #1263 | ||||
Veteran
Join Date: Jan 2015
Posts: 1,864
|
Quote:
Quote:
Last edited by FormulaFox; 19 Mar 2017 at 19:19. |
||||
|
19 Mar 2017, 19:24 (Ref:3720044) | #1264 | ||||
Veteran
Join Date: Jan 2015
Posts: 1,864
|
Quote:
Quote:
They also DON'T get their laptimes completely the same way. Only in the most generalized sense are they the same. Maintaining momentum is far more important in the DP02s than in the LMP3s due to how much less torque the Mazda engines in the Elan have. |
||||
|
19 Mar 2017, 19:33 (Ref:3720045) | #1265 | ||
Veteran
Join Date: Nov 2013
Posts: 1,078
|
Quote:
|
||
|
19 Mar 2017, 19:48 (Ref:3720052) | #1266 | ||
Veteran
Join Date: Jan 2015
Posts: 1,864
|
|||
|
20 Mar 2017, 20:01 (Ref:3720277) | #1267 | |||
Veteran
Join Date: May 2013
Posts: 2,470
|
Quote:
Based on the conversation I had over the weekend with both teams, and manufacturers... you've got no clue. IMSA has chosen P3, they are working hard to make it a success, and it will be.. |
|||
__________________
“We’re trying to close the doors without embarrassing ourselves, the France family and embarrassing (the) Grand American Series,” he said in the deposition. “There is no money. There is no purse. There’s nothing.” |
20 Mar 2017, 22:48 (Ref:3720300) | #1268 | ||||
Veteran
Join Date: Jan 2015
Posts: 1,864
|
Quote:
Quote:
IMSA can push it all they want, but if they can't justify the increased expense it can easily come to nothing. So yes, it IS faith. You have no way of knowing how it's going to turn out. (nor do I, but that's why I characterize my points as CONCERNS, not a definite future) |
||||
|
21 Mar 2017, 01:34 (Ref:3720328) | #1269 | ||||||
Veteran
Join Date: May 2013
Posts: 2,470
|
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
|
||||||
__________________
“We’re trying to close the doors without embarrassing ourselves, the France family and embarrassing (the) Grand American Series,” he said in the deposition. “There is no money. There is no purse. There’s nothing.” |
21 Mar 2017, 02:15 (Ref:3720330) | #1270 | |||||||||
Veteran
Join Date: Jan 2015
Posts: 1,864
|
Quote:
Quote:
I'll note for starters that I've never once said CN should have been adopted over LMP3. You may also note I've never said IMSA should just throw out LMP3. Quote:
Quote:
(and let's not get into when the cars get revised after homologation expires - too many ways as to how that can turn out to try and account for it) Quote:
If the P3 cars were as fast as PC, we wouldn't be having this discussion - I wouldn't be using CN to illustrate of what needs to be fixed in LMP3, I'd only be mentioning it when lamenting IMSA's refusal to replace the outdated Elan junkers. Quote:
Quote:
|
|||||||||
|
22 Mar 2017, 02:24 (Ref:3720519) | #1271 | ||
Veteran
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 11,312
|
Quote:
|
||
|
22 Mar 2017, 05:01 (Ref:3720538) | #1272 | ||||
Veteran
Join Date: Jan 2015
Posts: 1,864
|
Quote:
Well, I'll partially take that back... There was that ONE thing I made an express and deliberate prediction on - And it still amazes me that nobody's yet put two and two together about that matter, given the overall situation. Quote:
This matter's been a perfect example of the latter, in fact - I proposed that the LMP3s should be sped up and provided a point of comparison to outline why, and I'm getting all but accused of wanting to throw LMP3 to the curb in favor of my "precious CN cars." (that was not an actual quote, of course, just a simplification of how people appear to be looking at how I view CN) And "whining?" If what I've done is whining to you, I think you need to look around a bit more - not just here, but everywhere. However bitter you may interpret my viewpoints as, actually trying to debate the matter certainly isn't "whining." By the definition you appear to be using, any form of criticism is whining. Keep in mind, this all started because a certain someone didn't like the fact that I called the lack of a significant gap between the LMP3 and MPC poles at Sebring "unimpressive." Is that whining? No, it's criticism. Not even unfairly harsh criticism, either - criticism with valid logic behind it. You know what I'd classify as whining? Complaining about an entire 12 hour endurance race simply because the finish wasn't close - something numerous users here and elsewhere are quite guilty of. At least I'm trying to actually debate my point, and make clear what I've been trying to say amidst a mess of misunderstanding, rather than attacking anybody who dares not agree with it. |
||||
|
22 Mar 2017, 05:11 (Ref:3720539) | #1273 | ||
Veteran
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 11,312
|
Quote:
Please try debate by responding with a team, a driver, a SINGLE PERSON in racing who has said LMP3 is too slow and they can't sell it. Even one, a single person who is in the position to actual run a car. That would actually be debate, saying I'm right, I'm right, you'll see I'm right is not debate. Well unless you're Melissa McCarthy's alter ego. |
||
|
22 Mar 2017, 08:02 (Ref:3720565) | #1274 | |||||||
Veteran
Join Date: Jan 2015
Posts: 1,864
|
Quote:
Quote:
My point has always been that IN THE LONGRUN, it is something that COULD BECOME an issue. And it's one that can, and I feel should be, considered and addressed before that possibility can become a reality. Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
If you're actually willing to reconsider your assessment of my assertions in light of this, I will be glad to continue debate. Here or in PM depending on moderation's view of whether or not we're dragging this thread off topic. But if you'd rather remain unwilling to consider the reality of my stance on the matter, there is no point in further debate. |
|||||||
|
22 Mar 2017, 13:17 (Ref:3720638) | #1275 | ||
Veteran
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 12,057
|
My thoughts about seeing them at Sebring is that I liked the pace, the look and the sound. The pace was decent at the sharp end but faded very quickly through the field in the first race. Think the top 2 lapped the field up to 3rd? I'm unsure if it's prep or wheel talent or both, but I'd like to see some improvement in the middle to bottom end of the field. The potential is certainly seems to be there.
|
||
__________________
"Knowing that it's in you and you never let it out Is worse than blowing any engine or any wreck you'll ever have." -Mike Cooley |
|
|
Similar Threads | ||||
Thread | Thread Starter | Forum | Replies | Last Post |
is there an LMP3? | phillsportscar | Sportscar & GT Racing | 24 | 15 Jun 2006 22:56 |
Time for LMP3? | Rubinho | Sportscar & GT Racing | 44 | 22 Aug 2005 16:05 |
New sponsor for Lites? | pete55 | Australasian Touring Cars. | 26 | 3 Nov 2004 00:05 |
V8 Lites | StuiE | Australasian Touring Cars. | 7 | 23 Apr 2002 05:40 |
Indy lites | marcus | ChampCar World Series | 6 | 8 Jun 2000 13:18 |