breaking old ties

[b1ackcr0w]

Going back to the original post. I think you're doing the right thing. I'm moving primary clubs this year also. There are two reasons for my move.

1. Local Circuit is Castle Combe & I think that Castle Combe has earned my loyalty as a circuit, and therefore supporting their newly formed racing club is the way to go.

2. Chris Hobson has recently convinced me that the BMMC, despite the criticisms that could be levelled at them, are worth being a member of because they are at least concentrated on my primary interest and working actively for the same aims I am.

No, while I would never discourage anybody from joining the racing clubs as a paid marshalling member. But only if you want to and can easily afford to. If it comes down to the common choice of "I can't afford to join all of them", I would say your cash really does do better with the BMMC.

[JimW]

Originally Posted by falcemob

Why do you have to pay to join these clubs? Surely as you are all volunteers membership should be free as should insurance.

You might well think so.

To be fair the BARC operate a system whereby you can collect "stamps" at each meeting you marshal (if you remember and also it does not operate at Oulton because the NW centre provide other benefits for attendance) which mean your membership is free if you only do a few meetings each year.

I have always regarded BMMC as my marshalling membership and BARC as an extra which has rarely cost me anything.

But again, be aware that a part of your BMMC membership goes to pay for marshals' training because insufficient money comes from the Governing body (effectively nil) or the Motorsports Training Trust (an MSA controlled body, technically separate). Should BMMC members be paying to subsidise the training of others? Good thing we are an altruistic body of people isn't it?

Regards

Jim

[EvilPumpkin]

I've been a BMMC member for about 4 years now. As Kirkistown comes under the remit of the UK and I'm a Kirkistown marshal as much as Mondello one, I felt it was appropriate. It's also handy when we travel to the UK as being BMMC members and MSA licence holders makes it a lot easier for the relevant CMs to figure out what to do with us!

I have to say that the BMMC membership counts for a lot - and not just in the UK. It's been very helpful to other Irish marshals when they want to travel to other non-Irish circuits. It's seems to be the marshalling equivalent of Amex - acceptable anywhere!

I am a member of the two main Irish organisations as well, but both memberships are rather a formality and a gesture of support than anything else. I don't really get much out of either of them.

[archaic gold]

Do not forget that the original thread was about the current state of affairs at Brands Hatch, the SE!!

[Sheila M]

Originally Posted by EvilPumpkin

It's seems to be the marshalling equivalent of Amex - acceptable anywhere!

Yes, I think our past President, dear old Muddly Talker, may have had something to do with that - he always said that British Marshals were the finest in the world.

What the marshals in the rest of the world thought of that I have no idea, but I do know that there are working parties from the BMMC being sent out to all corners of the globe (is that possible in a ball shaped thing?) to train others.

[EvilPumpkin]

One thing to add - we've been going to Brands for a few years now and the folks from the BRSCC Marshals have always been absolutely wonderful to us. I'm not going to name any names in case I leave someone out, but they've always taken great care of us and that - along with the great racing and friends we've made - is the reason we keep going back.

I'm very sorry to hear they're having problems and hope that they'll all be sorted out soon.

[Stephen Green]

Those people will be your friends regardless of whether you or they are members of the BRSCC. Like many circuits, the Brands hatch marshals are to an extent circuit specific. By that I mean they marshal for most clubs that put race meetings on at that circuit be they BRSCC, BARC, MGCC, 750 etc etc.

[EvilPumpkin]

Hi Stephen, I know that I just wanted to say that we've always been looked after by the good folks at BRSCC when we visited. I know the same people would have looked after us, no matter which club was involved - and have done in fact, since we've not solely done BRSCC meetings. I just wanted to say thanks!

[John Watson]

When I am organising the marshalling force at the various circuits that the MG Car Club visit around the Country, I rely very heavily on the local Chiefs and Marshals for as much help and input as possible to ensure a smooth, well run meeting that runs to the set timetable. After all, they have the experience and knowledge of how the circuit works best and who is best for the various duties, and who work well together as well as those who don't! the fact that most, if not all, of these most valuable and experienced Marshals/Officials around the Circuits are, or were members of the BRSCC, is of no importance to me for our Clubs meetings, but it does show that the BRSCC has produced some very professional and extremely capable volunteers who are only too willing to give their expertise to any Club that calls for help. I always respect the locals at the Circuits that we visit as it has been proved to me that they know best how to run their home circuit.
My local circuit is Cadwell Park and we offer our services to all the Clubs that visit the Circuit the same way that goes on at just about all the other Circuits in the Country because we enjoy what we do.
So please do not get on at any of these (What ever Club) Officials who operate in the Marshalling side of Race Meetings, perhaps their hands are tied by their parent Club. Remember they are volunteers as well.
As for the BMMC, I have been a member now for nearly 30 years and worked my way through the grading scheme. I do not agree with all that the Club has done, and have had many disagreements with some of their policies, but I have always taken these to my Regional Committee, and not aired them in public. If you have a problem, you have to take that problem to some one who can do something about it, not every Official/Chief subscribes to 10 Tenths or even to the world of the internet, so take your problem to your Club direct by letter, not just a phone call.

Now, just for my Brands friends, our availability will be with you any day now, perhaps some of you may have received it already. The delay has been caused once again by MSV with date changing. However we will be at Brands Hatch on July 16th, and as said above I will be relying on you all for as much help as possible. Please give us your support and we will give you a good days racing.

[Bodysnatcher]

Originally Posted by Dave Brand

. At two of them, Oulton Park & Anglesey, as, for every meeting at those two circuits, whatever club runs them, only one volunteering form is required. The same applies to Croft, probably other circuits.

That's a start - one circuit - one form.

As Stephen has said, for a large number of us our loyalty is firstly to circuit and then to club.

So Dave, how exactly does it work at these circuits? (noting that it seems to be done for Oulton, so why not other MSV circuits?)

Presumably, there's a hard working volunteer member of one club or another taking this in hand and passing on details as required to the various clubs. If this is the case then I sincerely applaud their efforts.

but, I guess what I'd rather see is an employee of the circuit (someone like our pal Archaic Gold) dealing with it, because in the end it's the circuit's ability to provide a service for their customers (the race clubs) that keeps them in business. I heard JP was trying to do something like this...stands to reason really.

[Stephen Green]

At the moment Mildred does this on behalf of several clubs (BRSCC, AMOC, HSCC) and if the situation were to change and there become one source for marshals, regardless of the organising club, then I would suggest she is the person to tackle the job.

[JimW]

Originally Posted by Bodysnatcher

That's a start - one circuit - one form.

As Stephen has said, for a large number of us our loyalty is firstly to circuit and then to club.

So Dave, how exactly does it work at these circuits? (noting that it seems to be done for Oulton, so why not other MSV circuits?)

Presumably, there's a hard working volunteer member of one club or another taking this in hand and passing on details as required to the various clubs. If this is the case then I sincerely applaud their efforts.

but, I guess what I'd rather see is an employee of the circuit (someone like our pal Archaic Gold) dealing with it, because in the end it's the circuit's ability to provide a service for their customers (the race clubs) that keeps them in business. I heard JP was trying to do something like this...stands to reason really.

On the contrary, I would much rather that someone did it as a volunteer. That way they are free to represent the views of their constituents to the circuit without any conflict of interest.

Regards

Jim

[johngee]

Certainly for clubs like HSCC, which travel round the country, there's a number of people like Mildred (Brands Hatch), John Watson (Cadwell), Peter Rodwell (Snetterton), Alistair Garrett (Oulton) who are able to provide a link to the local marshals and officials. They all do a lot of hard work and I'm not sure how our meetings would happen without them. The problem with all of this is that it's fragmented and is over reliant on the goodwill and time of just a few dedicated people. If we were to think of some sort of centralised system, it could start to be almost a full time job and then some form of beaurocracy would start to get in the way. Also, I guess that the organising clubs would have to share the costs - it's not for the circuit owners/operators to supply the marshals, although, perhaps that's where it might go in the future? There doesn't seem to be any synergy between the organising clubs, BMMC, MSA and circuits to approach this problem - too much pride and vested interest I suspect. But it DOES need to be addressed.

[Bodysnatcher]

To Stephen - yes I know Mildred does a great job, but pay the somebodies like Mildred to cover all the clubs at a venue.

back to before that..

Originally Posted by John Watson

So please do not get on at any of these (What ever Club) Officials who operate in the Marshalling side of Race Meetings, perhaps their hands are tied by their parent Club. Remember they are volunteers as well.

Agree with that bit most strongly John, indeed I am not criticising any person within the marshalling side of things at BRSCC SE. What has diminished my "Brand loyalty" is that the BRSCC (nationally) seems to be diminishing in quantity as well as quality when it comes to the racing. It's all smiles in public about what happened at Combe.

Originally Posted by John Watson

If you have a problem, you have to take that problem to some one who can do something about it, not every Official/Chief subscribes to 10 Tenths or even to the world of the internet, so take your problem to your Club direct by letter, not just a phone call.

Key words some one who can do something

My problem as such is that the club I grew up in racing with is in decline, and I no longer want to financially support its ailing programme. That's what's hurting. It's like kicking your old faithful dog before taking down to the vet for the big sleep.
Nor am I capable of making suggestions to any commitee member that would move the club in right direction, I marshal. Decline's probably just a natural cycle - life tends to be like that, maybe by about 2020 the'll be back on top.

Likewise the heresy of marshals not contributing to the club's (a business with employees let us not forget) bank balance is'nt going to get me a favourable audience - kind of like turkeys voting for christmas.

Regarding net access and those that follow 10/10ths...
Those that matter watch.... and mark our cards....but say little or nothing.
Just look at the bottom of the page - guests usually outnumber members, surely there's not that much casual interest in my ranting.

[Bodysnatcher]

Originally Posted by JimW

On the contrary, I would much rather that someone did it as a volunteer. That way they are free to represent the views of their constituents to the circuit without any conflict of interest.

Regards

Jim

right back at you..
Jim, the problem with some volunteers at the moment is that they have vested interests or prejudices.

[Bodysnatcher]

Originally Posted by johngee

<really good post> But it DOES need to be addressed.

Well said John, but I feel that if a circuit had an employee that maintained the local marshal register, then that cost is passed on in the circuit hire charge (if there is one, eg MSV meetings at MSV circuits).

Questions -
1- Do different clubs pay different prices for hiring the same circuit?
2 - Do all clubs provide their own marshals/rescue units?
Or are they dependant on this tenuous network of hard working volunteers.
3 -In turn does club A pay anything to club B for marshals or rescue unit?
my assumed answesr
No
No
They do for the unit don't they, but as for marshals?

[archaic gold]

Originally Posted by JimW

On the contrary, I would much rather that someone did it as a volunteer. That way they are free to represent the views of their constituents to the circuit without any conflict of interest.

Regards

Jim

I totally agree! At times I tread a very fine line between my part-time employment with MSV, and my responsibilities to the BMMC and volunteer Marshals in general. I must add that Mildred does a wonderful job, and works tirelessly for all those Clubs that promote meetings at Brands Hatch. I am sue she does not have a problem officiating in this way!

[Peter Harding]

On the subject of BRSCC particularly at Brands:
There has, for many years been a sort of "status quo" about the clubs, where, although they are in competition, they co-habit well. We have seen many clubs have lows in popularity (normally as a result of poor performance or arrogance at the top) and they get an alarm call like lack of marshals/members and fight their way out.
One hopes that the BRSCC will follow the same recovery route. It suits no-one (especially other clubs) to have some club collapse.
The best thing is to tell the club you are dissatisfied and, if you decide not to renew membership, tell then why. Hopefully that will spark the right reactions to effect a recovery.
I am still a member of BRSCC/BARC/BMMC (as well as 750MC) but, as old age (and poverty) progress, I may have to review this and its "worst out first".

Not quite yet though.

[johngee]

Bodysnatcher
To answer your 3 questions:
'No comment' - and you can read into that what you like!
Clubs provide their own marshals - Rescue Units are often hired from other clubs
Clubs often hire, not only Rescue Units but also things like radios from each other.

[Peter Harding]

On centralised volunteering:
At Oulton there is a stong BMMC support and the local reps over the years have been great at co-ordinating the volunteers and sending names etc to the club chief at the right time. Their list represents the majority of marshals.
Similar at Cadwell (althouh they send the tickets out and allocate etc) and that works well.
Donn and Silverstone is similar but only for ES (not Obs/Flag/Specialist)

For my part, I like to have my own list as I like personal contact, but welcome the help of local reps.

The only problem is, that if a local person does all the volunteering gathering and something goes wrong (get the date wrong/ Get the a*** with a club and scr** up) will someone want to sue and will we end up with disclaimers and confusing litigation.
Thats what society is doing to us these days.

I still don't know who would get the blame if we turned up at Silv/Don and there was no ES. Do the circuits back Pam/Diane so, if they caused the meeting to cancel for lack of marshals, the circuit would not charge? Hope I never find out.

[Dave Brand]

Originally Posted by Bodysnatcher

That's a start - one circuit - one form.

TWO circuits, one form!

So Dave, how exactly does it work at these circuits?

In a word, it works very well.....oops, that's two words.

Presumably, there's a hard working volunteer member of one club or another taking this in hand and passing on details as required to the various clubs. If this is the case then I sincerely applaud their efforts.

The volunteering from is compiled by BRSCC NW's own Alistair Garrett, & returned to BMMC's Dave Cleavely. Such systems, & the Oulton/Anglesey one isn't unique, just the one I know best, have a lot of advantages for everybody. There are nine different clubs organising race meetings at the two circuits this year; for the individual marshal, it's a lot easier to fill in one form than eight; for the chief marshals of the various clubs it's a lot fewer forms to process.

but, I guess what I'd rather see is an employee of the circuit (someone like our pal Archaic Gold) dealing with it, because in the end it's the circuit's ability to provide a service for their customers (the race clubs) that keeps them in business. I heard JP was trying to do something like this...stands to reason really.

I think that should be left to the clubs; certainly, with respect to Oulton, it ain't broke......let's not try to fix it.

As Pete Harding has said, there's a very strong BMMC presence at Oulton - I stand to be corrected on this, but I think all the Oulton 'regulars' are BMMC members - but the important point here is that, irrespective of club membership, everybody works together.

[Gordon Knight]

Well said Dave.
It is only when you read of problems experienced elsewhere, as illustrated
in this thread, that you realise what fantastic service we have had at
Oulton Park & Anglesey.
It is all too easy to take things for granted, so may I pay tribute to the
sterling work by Alistair Garrett, Margaret Simpson, Steve Brooks, & Dave Cleavely in making volunteering such a painless process.

[Stephen Green]

Ok chaps, time to steer the thread gently back on topic which is should or shouldn't one leave the BRSCC.

[johngee]

Just an 'innocent' enquiry which, I think Stephen, is more or less on thread! Are there any other sports where the VOLUNTEER officials are expected or encouraged to pay for membership (even with a discount or rebate scheme) to the clubs that they work for or represent?

[deadsquirrel]

Originally Posted by Stephen Green

Ok chaps, time to steer the thread gently back on topic which is should or shouldn't one leave the BRSCC.

As BRSCC is (allegedly) organising most racing at Rockingham this season, what would tempt me to sign up as a marshal member, rather than not, as seems to be suggested here?