Marshalling at Mallory yesterday (9th April)...

[candfracing]

...was sub-standard.

As a racer, I do actually adore the efforts of you guys, without you there would be no racing.

However, I feel that I should state that yesterday some of the marshalling was not up to scratch.

For those that where there, I was the one in the Orange Super Mighty Mini that almost hit the recovery/ambulance van after Andy Harrisons roll.

I have studied my camera and other cameras and spoke to other racers and spectators.

The marshall post on the entry to the Esses did not have any flag out. Not even a yellow, let alone a red.

Why did it take a complete lap to bring the red flag out? We are almost at 100mph through the Esses and at this time, we where 3 abreast, with me being on the outside. I had no idea that this crash was there because the marshall post was not showing any flags at all. The first time we noticed the incident was when I was greeted with marshalls and the recovery van, as we all lifted, it was inevitable that we would get lift off oversteer, I took a tap and was launched into a huge spin, which luckily I controlled to avoid hitting the van or worse one of you guys (or indeed Andy).

Then to make matters worse, the two marshall posts on the run up to the hairpin make comment that I regained my speed after recovering from the spin. As my video shows (and a hell of a lot of spectators backed this up), this was a complete lie, I was doing no more than about 10mph all the way back to the grid, otherwise I would of overtaken everyone.

Again, I'm not trying to protest my innocence, otherwise I would of protested by exclusion. I only race for fun, I don't take it serious enough to get involved in protests. What I do take serious though is mine and everyone elses safety, which I feel that yesterday was compromissed by some poor marshalling.

(steps off his soapbox).

However, for the majority, keep up the good service you guys give!

[Robin_D]

Interesting to see that from another perspective. I was at the Oak Tree and was approaching the incident when you performed the pirouette
Earlier on in the day we had commented on that we couldn't see the flag on the entry to the esses.
I think we can say that we all learnt from the incident and luckily no one was hurt.

edit: I think for you to come and comment on here shows alot too.

[ditchy19]

shocking, no red flag at all on the entrance to the esses. it was only luck that no one was hurt.
the coc or marshals from the entrance to the esses should be held acountable for this before some one does get hurt. instead of blaming there mistakes on the driver.

[Gerryc]

I wasn't at Mallory yesterday so can't comment on this incident but please be aware that the red flag can ONLY be displayed on the direct instructions of the CoC and must first be displayed at the Startline. Flag marshals on individual posts have no authority to, and are specifically banned from, showing the red flag unles they have seen a red flag displayed at another post or can see that the redlights have come on at the startline (or any repeater red lights). I know from my time on that post that you cannot see the red lights from their so MUST wait until the red flag reaches you post-to-post. You may not like these regs. (I don't either) but the flaggie(s) at the esses do have to obey them!

Gerry Condon - Flag Marshal.

[candfracing]

Thanks Gerry for that.

I think you've said exactly that, the issue may not have been with the marshalls and appologies for making my post sound like it's a direct hit on the Marshalls.

The issue is that there was a huge delay before the flags came out, in fact, almost a lap, so that's 1 minute, just as the train of cars are entering the Esses (the incident would have been blind to us).

When I visited the CoC, he did seem strangely calm about it all, as if he knew something different. Like HE had cocked up.

[Alan Crook]

candfracing,

Which post exactly did not display a flag as there is a post just before Edwina`s chicane which is only used for bikes and is not actually used for car meetings.

Would like to see a copy of your video just to see it from a drivers point of view.

[Fay]

Hi Craig

Seeing as I was actually dealing with the incident at the time, I cannot say whether the yellow flag was out at the Esses or not. I believe it was from what I heard. However, one point for you to consider, where do you think the flag post is? This may seem a silly question, but some drivers think the marshal post is the box just before Edwina's chicane which is a post we do not use for cars. The actual flag post is the white box on the left just before the corner (after Edwina's chicane). Could it be that you do not see this flag post?

[ditchy19]

Originally Posted by Gerryc

I wasn't at Mallory yesterday so can't comment on this incident but please be aware that the red flag can ONLY be displayed on the direct instructions of the CoC and must first be displayed at the Startline. Flag marshals on individual posts have no authority to, and are specifically banned from, showing the red flag unles they have seen a red flag displayed at another post or can see that the redlights have come on at the startline (or any repeater red lights). I know from my time on that post that you cannot see the red lights from their so MUST wait until the red flag reaches you post-to-post. You may not like these regs. (I don't either) but the flaggie(s) at the esses do have to obey them!

Gerry Condon - Flag Marshal.

hi gerry, i should of been in that race but for machanical problems. the post in question had a direct view of the incident and the red flag futher into the esses. the flag was not shown at that post at any time, even after craigs incident. they not only put drivers at risk but as there were marshals attending the incident they put them right in the line of fire.
it was like watching a knightmare unfold right before your eyes.
it wouldnt be as bad if people who were at fault recognised this and learnt from it.

[ditchy19]

p.s. the marshal post in question was been used and had displayed flags there before and after.

[ditchy19]

Originally Posted by Fay

Hi Craig

Seeing as I was actually dealing with the incident at the time, I cannot say whether the yellow flag was out at the Esses or not. I believe it was from what I heard. However, one point for you to consider, where do you think the flag post is? This may seem a silly question, but some drivers think the marshal post is the box just before Edwina's chicane which is a post we do not use for cars. The actual flag post is the white box on the left just before the corner (after Edwina's chicane). Could it be that you do not see this flag post?

the post in question was not edwinas it was the one after at the entrance to the esses.

[candfracing]

Correct, it was the post on the entrance to the Esses, not the un-used Edwina's.

I'm really not trying to finger point, but just simply express my concern. This was the first time in my racing career that I was actually scared sh1tless for my safety and others.

I will post a still image of the post from my camera, can't really post the video as I could get in trouble for it.

I have been asked to provide the video to the BRSCC though, as they will look at this from an "improving safety" point of view, again, not finger pointing.

Many thanks to all for not actually rising to my concern and turning it into an argument.

After all, we are all there for one reason! - Enjoyment!

[Woolley]

Originally Posted by ditchy19

it wouldnt be as bad if people who were at fault recognised this and learnt from it.

We don't know yet that they were at fault, and if they were that they haven't. This could be an interesting discussion where we can all learn, so may I remind everyone to keep it to facts, not emotions.

Not having been there, I'll sum up what I think from the posts, and if anything is wrong, please correct me.

Flag posts are at 6 - Stebbe Straight, 7 - Esses In (on the oustside after the new Edwina's chicane, not the one on the entrance to the chicane which operates only when that section of track is in use) and 8 - Esses out, roughly on the apex of the left hand part.

Location of the incident is unclear, but reading between the lines I'm guessing it's at the start of the Esses, probably roughly oposite post 7. Depending on location, 7 should have been showing waved yellow with 6 stationary, or if the incident is earlier in the corner, 7 will be green, with 6 waved and 5 (on the exit of Gerards) stationary. This is the bit that is most relevant, but least clear from the previous posts.

Depending on what happened, there may be a delay while marshals recover from evasive action - Esses in can be quite hairy. They then have to judge the situation, ring (yes, telephones) race control and request a red flag. The Clerk will asses based on the report and then request reds which will travel around the circuit by line of sight back to the Esses - the furthest point from the start line. If this happened in around a minute, that's actually pretty efficient, but of course with the short Mallory lap it does mean the cars beat the flags.

Did anyone do anything wrong? We don't know yet. It's possible - no-one's perfect and marshals do make errors. Else the procedures or positions may have led to the problem.

I do recommend letting Alan see the video. He's the best person to see if anything can be learned or improved.

[Alan Crook]

Originally Posted by Woolley

I do recommend letting Alan see the video. He's the best person to see if anything can be learned or improved.

If the driver has let BRSCC have a copy I`m sure it will be reviewed and discussed, so I`m sure I will hear what the outcome is.

The mini involved in the accident actually came to rest in or just before the gravel at the back of the Elbow.

[ditchy19]

wooley, what i posted was what i observed emotion was never a factor.

[candfracing]

Wooley, my points exactly.

The reason the video has been requested is to look at the safety of the circuit and not to judge who was/is at fault.

I'm pretty sure under the circumstances that the CoC should of immediatly raised the ok for the Red Flag even before we got to the Start/Finish line. The car did a lot of barrel rolls and even twisted in mid air (like one of those Russian Gymnasts ), the driver tried to get out of the car and then fell to his knees so the recovery truck deployed itself to protect the driver. As far as I'm concerned the all clear to stop the race should not of been at debate, the CoC should stopped the mad train coming through the Esses.

The thing is, the cars were 3 abrest coming up the straight into the Esses and none of us saw any flags at the entrance to the Esses (Post 7). So continued into Esses at race speed, to make the situation worse, we were still 3 abreast, no anyone who's watched Mini racing, would realise that 3 Minis side-by-side through the Esses means that they are right on the edge.


What this means is there is no way we can even ease off without losing control, we all did, but I was the only one (being on the outside so even more on the limit) who slid sideways straight at the incident.

What is good is that at least this forum gives us the opportunity to discuss this. Marshalls and drivers never really get to talk (unless you have a bad race!).

[Woolley]

Originally Posted by Alan Crook

If the driver has let BRSCC have a copy I`m sure it will be reviewed and discussed, so I`m sure I will hear what the outcome is.

The mini involved in the accident actually came to rest in or just before the gravel at the back of the Elbow.

Thanks, Alan, so just after post 7.

[Alan Crook]

Just before post 8

[Robin_D]

There or there abouts anyway.

[The Fat Clerk]

I was the Observer on Post 7, I was waving the Red Flag, Louis my Flag Marshal was waving the yellow, Post 6 had a Stationery Yellow & a Waved Red, Post 5 had a Waved red. I've counted to a number a lot higher than 10 before writing this.

[White flag man]

Maybe this should be merged with the "How difficult is it to see flags" thread.
I personally would like to thank the drivers for coming on to this forum and pointing out their problem , even if they seem to be mistaken.
IMHO, and in this age of modern technology, I think we need to start changing the systems. I hear people saying " if it ain't broke, don't fix it". Well judging by this thread, it is broke and it needs fixing, before (as Evilpumpkin says) people get killed.
I'm sorry for all involved in what happened, and maybe the drivers would like to enter into the debate on the thread mentioned above.

[devon kev]

As a flaggie , at the training day at Pembrey we watched a video from the drivers eye , and then asked how many flags we saw , IMHO i did'nt see many even though there were apparantly 10 displayed

[Dan Friel]

It sounds like an interesting, if horrendously dangerous incident. Can we get the footage on "You Tube" or something similar?? It may help both drivers and marshals...

[devon kev]

Would be well worth a look

[JimW]

I'm also glad that drivers have come here to discuss this and I need to say this up front because I'm going to disagree with much of what they say.

I was one of the people who went to the mini which rolled. Normally I don't advocate crossing the track but I (and my other course marshal colleague, Fay, see above) were the nearest and we had good visibility for a decent gap to cross over from Post 8 to the mini which was opposite and on the exact edge of the track. So our safety was not (then) in doubt.

Now I am satisfied that yellows were properly displayed (posts 7 and 6) and also that red flags were being waved as described by the Fat Clerk above. I did not see any of them (I was attending to the driver who had collapsed) but I have spoken to several marshals who were on the relevant posts and don't believe that they were either mistaken or lying.

So that means I believe that those who have posted above saying that there were no flags were mistaken.

Now I have had cars assault me or my close surroundings many times over the years when I have been attending incidents such as this. It is part of the risks I take freely and willingly (see the signature) and all I ask is that the occasions are treated seriously by all concerned. As indeed I believe they were in this case.

So what is wrong? We deem drivers to have seen the flags if they are properly displayed at posts authorized and approved by the MSA. The position is very similar to a 30mph road sign - no court is going to let me off a penalty if my reason for speeding is that I did not see the sign. The only difference is the scope for genuine differences of opinion as to whether the temporary motorsports signs were indeed being displayed at the relevant time.

Now in many ways I would argue that the red flag was only even necessary because we cannot trust drivers to do what the yellow flag requires of them. If we could depend on drivers to do what the Blue Book requires, I would be perfectly happy to work on that driver without stopping the race. I've done it in other circumstances (but perhaps rarely quite so close to the track and in an area where people are know to fly off. )

We can talk all we want about improving the siting of flag points (and several developments at Oulton make me think that MSA/insurers pressure will lead to flag points being much less visible, not more). We can talk about lights and I personally have no doubts that high intensity LED displays under the control of flag marshals would be a great improvement on bits of cloth, but I don't think that this makes a radical difference.

One thing I do think we need is red lights all round the circuit switched on by Race Control. This is what happens at Donington and is so obvious an improvement I cannot understand why it is not an immediate universal requirement. Well actually I understand perfectly well. A combination of £££s and reluctance from the MSA to impose even more on circuits.

So candfracing, no complaints -- because you missed me (and my colleagues) and near misses don't count.

But I do think that this episode adds to the pressure for some change.

Regards

Jim Whitaker

[ChrisA]

I was the observer on post 11( the Elbow), and as the Red Flag came out, I turned to watch the field of cars coming through the Esses, just seconds before the spinning car in question. I also saw Waved Yellow AND Red Flags at post 7. Again, like the Fat Clerk, I had to toy with the idea of replying to this thread. There I've said my bit.