[WEC] LMP Future Regulations (was Le Mans EVO rules - now hypercar rules)

[TzeiTzei]

Originally Posted by chernaudi

Considering that a LMP2 almost won, I'd say that there's every incentive to develop a fast and reliable LMP1 privateer car next year, considering that it's almost a certainty that LMP2 and LMP1 factory teams will get pegged back.

The unreliability of the LMP1 cars this year, in spite of how many 30 hour tests they did, almost kept the top class off the podium, let alone winning.

Why would LMP2 get pegged back?

[chernaudi]

Thus far, LMP2 at LM was nearly as fast as the Kolles car as long as it held together. And the LMP1 privateer regs are basically frozen, even though new cars are built.

Not to mention ongoing worries that the fuel cut off for the LMP1 factory cars vs LMP2s being air restrictor engines still causes speed trap descrepencies and that the #9 Toyota's accident might have been partially caused by it.

Basically, if LMP1 privateer were built to use air restirctors instead of fuel flow, they'd just be light weight LMP2s. And LMP2s are making the same 600bhp that LMP1s are making on engine power.

[broadrun96]

So because Kolles made a terrible car the P2s should be pegged back?? Sorry but there's no need for rules to take care of a car that lasted 2 laps, let the new cars run and see what they can do, without using one of the worst cars as your baseline.

[chernaudi]

I don't see how under the current regs that a LMP1 privateer car would be much faster than a LMP2. Consider that the Oreca 07 is the same thing basically as the Rebellion R-One. A car that was only qualified as fast as the Kolles or LMP2s this year.

And when you consider that the LMP2s are as fast as non-hybrid Audi R18s were, all I can say is that's what happens when you give the junior prototype class 600bhp, which is what the Audi had.

[Akrapovic]

Originally Posted by chernaudi

I don't see how under the current regs that a LMP1 privateer car would be much faster than a LMP2. Consider that the Oreca 07 is the same thing basically as the Rebellion R-One. A car that was only qualified as fast as the Kolles or LMP2s this year.

And when you consider that the LMP2s are as fast as non-hybrid Audi R18s were, all I can say is that's what happens when you give the junior prototype class 600bhp, which is what the Audi had.

R-One is many years old now. Technology moves on. Also can be less accessible, so less comprised in design. Also, movable aero, different engine regs, etc etc etc.

Basically, there's thousands of ways a LMP1-P can be faster than a P2. In fact, the ByKolles, which is not a good car, has been all year. And since companies like Dallara are building P1s, they aren't going to make it slower than the P2 car. So of course it'll be faster. Stop looking for the negative in literally EVERYTHING.

[TzeiTzei]

I don't see any problem here.

[chernaudi]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

R-One is many years old now. Technology moves on. Also can be less accessible, so less comprised in design. Also, movable aero, different engine regs, etc etc etc.

Basically, there's thousands of ways a LMP1-P can be faster than a P2. In fact, the ByKolles, which is not a good car, has been all year. And since companies like Dallara are building P1s, they aren't going to make it slower than the P2 car. So of course it'll be faster. Stop looking for the negative in literally EVERYTHING.

Movable aero won't be coming to LMP1 until 2020. LMP1 privateer is supposed to be stable in regs until at least then.

The Kolles might be junk, and the Rebellion R-One might be years old, but the Oreca 07 and Rebellion R-One share the same tub, and even look the same externally.

Only way in the near future that LMP1 privateer can be sped up relative to LMP1 factory or LMP2 is give them a lot more fuel flow, or allow LMP1 privateer to revert back to air restrictors, and large ones at that.

[Akrapovic]

Originally Posted by chernaudi

Movable aero won't be coming to LMP1 until 2020. LMP1 privateer is supposed to be stable in regs until at least then.

Movable aero was discussed for LMP1-P last year.

Originally Posted by chernaudi

The Kolles might be junk, and the Rebellion R-One might be years old, but the Oreca 07 and Rebellion R-One share the same tub, and even look the same externally.

Yes. I know. That's the point. The R-One IS the ORECA 07. The R-One is years old and formed the LMP2 car. It stands to reason that anything new ORECA come up with will be a step forward, and doesn't have to be as customer focused as the 07 is. This is what engineers do - they move forward.

Originally Posted by chernaudi

Only way in the near future that LMP1 privateer can be sped up relative to LMP1 factory or LMP2 is give them a lot more fuel flow, or allow LMP1 privateer to revert back to air restrictors, and large ones at that.

It's not the only way. If you think that they can't find gains in aero, suspension, chassis, engine, etc then all it does it illustrate why you're not an engineer.

P1-P also doesn't require a silver driver. Can run all gold and platinum. Might actually be just what Rusinov is after.

[Matt]

They won't peg back the P2 cars because they want them to be able to pass GTE cars on straights, not by divebombing.

[Akrapovic]

Originally Posted by Matt

They won't peg back the P2 cars because they want them to be able to pass GTE cars on straights, not by divebombing.

And it worked. GTE drivers saying this year it made a huge difference. To quote Rob Bell - you'll always get an idiot who tries it, but it's made it a lot less frequent.

[chernaudi]

Fact is that a LMP2 car nearly winning shows what IMO LMP1 privateer needs to be able to be with a shot next year.

And I can't find anything showing what the 2018 LMP1 privateer technical regs are supposed to be, though I'm pretty sure that DRS was ditched. Only thing I can remember is more fuel flow, only one flow meter will be needed, unlimited engine capacity, unlimited engine use, and provision for a wider car (I don't know how much).

And most of what I mentioned also was intended to apply for this year, but I think much of that got pushed back to 2018, and most of the LMP1 privateer rules stuff I've found online is over a year old now.

This is the newest article I found, and it's basically declared rules stability for LMP1 privateer from 2017-2022 aside from engine mods, such as fuel flow:

http://sportscar365.com/lemans/wec/i...teer-for-2018/

[Akrapovic]

Originally Posted by chernaudi

Fact is that a LMP2 car nearly winning shows what IMO LMP1 privateer needs to be able to be with a shot next year.

The fact is, it's your opinon? And an LMP2 car didn't nearly win on performance, which is what we're discussing. You cannot mandate reliability.

Look, the ByKolles, which is not regarded as a very good car, was fast enough to beat the LMP2s. The LMP2 speed is around the same as what the Rebellion R-One was doing. The R-One debuted in 2014, after being developed in 2013. There has been 4 years of development since then. There is no apparent reason why the new cars would not be able to beat the LMP2s. Everyone else is positive about the new LMP1-P rules, why this unending search to find fault in everything?

[broadrun96]

Originally Posted by chernaudi

Fact is that a LMP2 car nearly winning shows what IMO LMP1 privateer needs to be able to be with a shot next year.

Did you watch the race?? LMP2 got SMOKED by an LMP1H that spent a lot of time in the garage. What makes you think a competent LMP1P wouldn't have run in the middle of that and ended up ahead. Using Kolles as what an LMP1P can be shows you really don't pay attention to the actual racing. But then if you paid attention you might actually be able to use facts instead of saying the fact is in my opinion. Facts aren't opinions, and yours seem to be also worthless or ill formed.

[chernaudi]

How else could a LMP2 car be leading up until almost an hour to go? Because of all the LMP1s breaking. If a LMP2 was capable of what LMP1 privateer speeds are hopefully going to be, there's a chance that the #2 Porsche wouldn't have won.

And as I mentioned, I don't see where there's any sigificant changes to LMP1 privateer regs between now and 2022 based on this article:

http://sportscar365.com/lemans/wec/i...teer-for-2018/

I watched the race, I'm not stupid. If you don't like my thoughts or opinions, ignore me, or ask a mod or admin to ban me or ask them to ask me to leave. At this stage, I'd be more than happy to go if asked.

[Akrapovic]

Originally Posted by chernaudi

How else could a LMP2 car be leading up until almost an hour to go? Because of all the LMP1s breaking. If a LMP2 was capable of what LMP1 privateer speeds are hopefully going to be, there's a chance that the #2 Porsche wouldn't have won.

I watched the race, I'm not stupid. If you don't like my thoughts or opinions, ignore me, or ask a mod or admin to ban me or ask them to ask me to leave. At this stage, I'd be more than happy to go if asked.

You're mixing reliability and speed. A bad P1P car is faster than the P2s, right now. We know this. That stands to reason a good P1P will be even faster, but you keep saying you don't know how they'd go faster, and then say it's about reliability.

I don't want you to go, because you're clearly a nice guy and certainly not stupid. But you're seriously trying desperately to find the negatives with absolutely everything. Seriously mate, I don't see the problem here. Assuming someone can make a good P1P car, it'll beat the P2s. We know this because the bad car is already faster than them. If the cars aren't good, they won't beat them, and then that's what they get for making bad cars.

Not every silver lining needs a cloud mate.

[skycafe]

Originally Posted by Matt

They won't peg back the P2 cars because they want them to be able to pass GTE cars on straights, not by divebombing.

You got it

[TF110]

Kolles would have been fine, but Webb hit something on the first lap. They were over a second faster in qualifying and had an ideal best of 3:21 but got held up in the Porsche curves. I think p2 is fine as is, for now. If they get even faster next year and p1-p doesn't go any better than the 3:24 that Kolles did, then there's a problem. Unfortunately we didn't get to see the CLM's race pace to make a judgement there. But next year we should have at least 4 or 5 private p1's.

[tigas]

Oh man, that Nismo engine on the back of the CLM...

[deggis]

De Chaunac, who serves as a consultant for Toyota’s FIA World Endurance Championship program, admitted that the cutting-edge hybrid technology may not quite be ready for intense 24-hour competitions.

“I think probably that at this level it’s probably too complicated of a car,” he told Sportscar365. “It’s important for us to reduce all this technology a little for something which is less complicated.”

http://sportscar365.com/lemans/wec/d...ated-of-a-car/

[tigas]

That's what I would call "sour grapes"... Monsieur De Chaunac, it's the Research and Development arm of Toyota that's paying you to race, the point is to MAKE the technology ready, you nimrod!

[ederss7]

So the LMP1-H guys want to reduce costs... but they can barely bring their cars home after 24h. Makes sense.

[Akrapovic]

We should stop pushing technology and just put Chevy V8s in all the cars. That's the true spirit of Le Mans!

[ederss7]

Originally Posted by deggis

http://sportscar365.com/lemans/wec/d...ated-of-a-car/

LOL. They had said, not a while ago, that hybrid technology is what keeps them in the WEC.

[TF110]

Originally Posted by ederss7

LOL. They had said, not a while ago, that hybrid technology is what keeps them in the WEC.

Don't confuse HDC's comments to that of Toyota's.

[Akrapovic]

Originally Posted by TF110

Don't confuse HDC's comments to that of Toyota's.

Toyota Motor Corporation President Akio Toyoda, meanwhile, has supported De Chaunac’s comments on hybrids in endurance racing.

Toyoda, who attended the Le Mans for the first time, issued a statement post-race on Sunday, apologizing to the drivers for not being able to “let you drive all out.”

“While the hybrid technology that has advanced through competition in the FIA World Endurance Championship puts its abilities on display in six-hour races, it might be that it is not yet ready for the long distance of the 24 Hours of Le Mans,” Toyoda said.

Mixed messages from Toyota.