Lotus in Winding-up Petition

[chillibowl]

Originally Posted by GTRMagic

One creditor unpaid may be the result of a commercial dispute, a family of them possibly talks to a commercial strategy... Maybe. perhaps... you just never know...

nope we never really know. f1 is a soap opera on a grand scale.

agree with you mike that this is all rather unseemly (feeling a little Saward type hate coming on when i say this) but isnt this just another unseemly blip on what has been a pretty steady and sad decline over the past 10 years?

not paying suppliers actually seems like their most minor of recent poor business practices.

[GTRMagic]

Lotus Tyres Held Up For FP1

...due to problems with those blasted international bank transfers. They are so bothersome. I mean if you use the power of positive thinking, shouldnt money automatically land in the bank account of your supplier

[GTRMagic]

LotusF1 Owed Pirelli $500k - Report

Interesting, if true, that Mr Palmer 'wants his money back'......

[wnut]

So I guess Mr Goshn and his board are waiting to see what they can get out of Bernie.
Hopefully if they are going to come back they don't wait so long that the Lotus infrastructure is severely damaged by the time they own it.

[GTRMagic]

Originally Posted by wnut

So I guess Mr Goshn and his board are waiting to see what they can get out of Bernie.
Hopefully if they are going to come back they don't wait so long that the Lotus infrastructure is severely damaged by the time they own it.

The hard part is, if/when Renault buys it, do they take on the debts too? And if so, how long will it take the beancounters to wade through all of that?

Mr Ecclestone may not be impressed with that kind of approach, given the love he didnt share for Caterham & Marussia as they went thru their financial hopscotch at the end of last season

We shall see

[wnut]

Originally Posted by GTRMagic

The hard part is, if/when Renault buys it, do they take on the debts too? And if so, how long will it take the beancounters to wade through all of that?

Mr Ecclestone may not be impressed with that kind of approach, given the love he didnt share for Caterham & Marussia as they went thru their financial hopscotch at the end of last season

We shall see

Hopefully if Renault are going to get the Lotus takeover done they do it soon so they can keep the team together and avoid further damaging everyone involved.
Genii capital don't come out of this well!

[GTRMagic]

Originally Posted by wnut

Hopefully if Renault are going to get the Lotus takeover done they do it soon so they can keep the team together and avoid further damaging everyone involved.
Genii capital don't come out of this well!

Do you count Mr Maldonado in the asset or liability column?

[wnut]

Originally Posted by GTRMagic

Do you count Mr Maldonado in the asset or liability column?

Loose cannon!

[wolfhound]

Its 'D' day for Lotus in court today as HMRC (Government Tax Authority) seek to get the Lotus F1 team into administration.
The situation for the team is complicated by the potential sale to Renault that seems to be taking a long time as the deal is mixed up with historic payments from FOM/CVC/Bernie and Red Bull buying itself out of its contract with Renault.
With a bunch of tough negotiators all involved this will go down to the wire.

https://joesaward.wordpress.com/2015...lotus-f1-team/

[Casper]

Originally Posted by wolfhound

Its 'D' day for Lotus in court today as HMRC (Government Tax Authority) seek to get the Lotus F1 team into administration.
The situation for the team is complicated by the potential sale to Renault that seems to be taking a long time as the deal is mixed up with historic payments from FOM/CVC/Bernie and Red Bull buying itself out of its contract with Renault.
With a bunch of tough negotiators all involved this will go down to the wire.

https://joesaward.wordpress.com/2015...lotus-f1-team/

What happened, has Renault taken over?

Call historic payments for what they are, Appearance Money!!

[Mike Harte]

Originally Posted by Casper

What happened, has Renault taken over?

Call historic payments for what they are, Appearance Money!!

I believe that the case has been adjourned to a later date. As the courts dealing with these matters are closed during the months of August and September, this would have been dealt with as an emergency case, so I believe, and would have been done by HMRC to show Lotus that it was to be taken seriously.

It will certainly have put additional pressure on Genii to come to a deal with any potential suitors!

[wolfhound]

Originally Posted by Mike Harte

I believe that the case has been adjourned to a later date. As the courts dealing with these matters are closed during the months of August and September, this would have been dealt with as an emergency case, so I believe, and would have been done by HMRC to show Lotus that it was to be taken seriously.

It will certainly have put additional pressure on Genii to come to a deal with any potential suitors!

That explains why I could not find anything about the case on the Web with no results.

[Casper]

Originally Posted by Mike Harte

I believe that the case has been adjourned to a later date. As the courts dealing with these matters are closed during the months of August and September, this would have been dealt with as an emergency case, so I believe, and would have been done by HMRC to show Lotus that it was to be taken seriously.

It will certainly have put additional pressure on Genii to come to a deal with any potential suitors!

That is going to complicate things as I doubt Renault would want to get in the middle of a court case involving taxation matters. Are there any odds on a Renault takeover being offered in Blighty?

[Mike Harte]

Originally Posted by wolfhound

That explains why I could not find anything about the case on the Web with no results.

Grandprix dot com are reporting that the case was adjourned for 11 days, and a Renault representative was in court to provide support for Lotus. However, the problem is that Renault seem unprepared to make any final decisions on their future involvement in F1 until they receive written confirmation from CVC that they will be treated financially as an "historical" team, i.e. on par with Ferrari, McLaren, etc.

The sticking point seems to be that CVC are baulking at seeing their returns being further eroded, even though, it is alleged, BCE has given an oral undertaking to Renault that they will be so treated.

So, possibly the next chapter will unfold on the 18th. This seems to indicate that the courts are taking this seriously as it hasn't been adjourned till after the summer recess, and in fact not even the fortnight reprieve that the judge would normally declare.

http://www.grandprix.com/ns/ns31835.html

[djinvicta]

Me thinks, as I've said before, they aren't buying Lotus with all that debt..
They will do a deal with the liquadator. Renault aren't bothered whether Lotus race in Singapore/Japan or not. They want the team as cheap as possible.

[Mike Harte]

You know, sometimes people are their own worst enemy.

I have just been reading the latest reporting of an interview with Lotus' deputy team principal ( http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/120764 ), and what he says is really stupid in my opinion, and it would have been better for him to have said nothing.

Lotus are, without doubt, in the deepest financial doo-doo. The fact that BCE had to pay the wage bill so that the team personel could keep going, about says it all. It is then compounded by the fact that the Income Tax and NIC that they had deducted from the salaries of the team's staff for the month of July hadn't been paid to the Inland Revenue (HMRC). That is so stupid because the Revenue are the most agressive creditor that a company can have, and when IT and NIC is not handed over by the due date, they get very antsy. I don't know what happens in other countries, but in the UK the Revenue are preferential creditors, and are second only to the employees in line to be paid in the event of an insolvency.

And HMRC knew that things were "tight" because they will have noted that Xtrac had already issued a winding up petition that was only set aside because Lotus somehow managed to pay their bill. The fact that there has been no report of the same happening with regards HMRC, would seem to indicate that they will be back in court on Friday coming, unless of course they can manage to somehow conjure up some dosh before that. And, I think, that they are foolish to be relying on Renault to ride in as their white knight; there is a reason why a deal hasn't been sealed yet, and there is still a 50/50 chance that a deal doesn't transpire.

Then what?

[Paarma]

"They say what doesn't kill you makes you stronger." It does certainly sound like the end.

[TrapezeArtist]

It doesn't sound good, does it? HMRC might be second to employees in the official pecking order but it's best not to upset them if you have a liking for your financial kneecaps residing somewhere roughly between their corresponding femur and tib'n'fib.

The situation hardly encourages Renault to come riding in as the White Knight either. I'm not trying to denigrate Renault here, but they are

1. a business
2. a large corporate entity

Therefore, all the cack that is flying around at the moment serves to

1. lower the price at which a deal can be struck
2. discourage Regie from getting involved at all for fear of getting hit by som of the smelly stuff

Based on the information available, I don't see a solution, so I'm just glad it's not my problem. I would really like to see Renault come back into F1 and Lotus is the obvious shoe-in, but the obstacles just kep getting bigger.

[Mike Harte]

It would appear that HMRC will still be pursuing a ruling on Friday that Lotus be wound up. It would seem as though Lotus have not been able to raise any cash to satisfy the Revenue, so they will be pushing forward with their application.

This would further seem to indicate that PDVSA still haven't paid their August payment for supporting Maldonado, or is it July and August's payments?

[Nikki Katz]

This is depressing. I'm just hoping that if the team fails and isn't replaced then it's a wake up call to the sport before they take anyone else with them. There's a lot of teams struggling, but I'm wondering how long it is before we add McLaren & Red Bull to that list.

[Armco Bender]

If they do go broke they wont be the first F1 team and they wont be the last.
F1 is like a giant black hole that money disappears into.

[Casper]

Originally Posted by Mike Harte

It would appear that HMRC will still be pursuing a ruling on Friday that Lotus be wound up. It would seem as though Lotus have not been able to raise any cash to satisfy the Revenue, so they will be pushing forward with their application.

This would further seem to indicate that PDVSA still haven't paid their August payment for supporting Maldonado, or is it July and August's payments?

I am a bit confused but being old and decrepit does that to me sometimes. I thought the Xtrac went to court to wind up Lotus and the HMRC joined in the action to prevent that happening as the value of the asset would be considerably less if it were wound up. Now you are saying that HMRC are going to seek a winding up order?

[Mike Harte]

Originally Posted by Casper

I am a bit confused but being old and decrepit does that to me sometimes.

I'm afraid that it happens to us all!

Originally Posted by Casper

I thought the Xtrac went to court to wind up Lotus and the HMRC joined in the action to prevent that happening as the value of the asset would be considerably less if it were wound up. Now you are saying that HMRC are going to seek a winding up order?

Whilst the original Winding Up Petition was adjourned, Lotus managed to settle with Xtrac outside of the court, and as such, Xtrac withdrew as the main litigant in the petition. The way these Petitions work is that only one petitioner, usually the one owed the most, is named as the Petitioner whilst the other creditors who also support the move for the Petition just stand alongside but un-named.

Once Xtrac stood down as the Petioner, it required one of the other creditors to move up to assume the position. It may be that HMRC were already one of the creditors previously, but are now just so frustrated at the way that Lotus are handling their financial matters. And I am fairly sure that even if Lotus was wound up, or put into administration pending a sale of it's assets, that their would be enough value in the disposals to satisfy the Revenue. It would be the unsecured creditors who would suffer the loss.

[Cynic]

If HMRC have moved up to be the petitioner for a winding-up order, then I would expect it to be curtains for Lotus unless a white knight comes in at the 11th hour. The HMRC have form on this - they've forced the liquidation of a number of lower league football clubs in the last couple of years on the basis that getting a % of sod-all now is better than sitting through several empty promises of full payment.

[wnut]

Originally Posted by Cynic

If HMRC have moved up to be the petitioner for a winding-up order, then I would expect it to be curtains for Lotus unless a white knight comes in at the 11th hour. The HMRC have form on this - they've forced the liquidation of a number of lower league football clubs in the last couple of years on the basis that getting a % of sod-all now is better than sitting through several empty promises of full payment.

If Renault are getting involved, I guess they've decided it is better to pick up the pieces from the liquidators, than to have people carping on about how Renault has stiffed them for payment if they buy the team as it is.