Top 20 Greatest F1 drivers - Page 2

davyboy · 27 Aug 2012, 16:34 (Ref:3125900)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aysedasi

I think I'll abstain.......

I think I will too. Facts are indisputable and the greatest Grand Prix driver is already known... yet watch how people will do everything to have their opinion usurp reality and 'justify' why he shouldn't be number 1 and their's should be. It's good for a laugh I suppose

**Aysedasi** · 27 Aug 2012, 17:09 (Ref:3125912)

Quote:

Originally Posted by davyboy

I think I will too. Facts are indisputable and the greatest Grand Prix driver is already known...

Very true.

But I bet my answer is different to yours.......

davyboy · 27 Aug 2012, 17:14 (Ref:3125914)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aysedasi

Very true.

But I bet my answer is different to yours.......

Of course

wolfhound · 27 Aug 2012, 17:17 (Ref:3125916)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aysedasi

But I bet my answer is different to yours.......

But that is what makes the debate interesting.

Dyson Mazda · 27 Aug 2012, 17:25 (Ref:3125918)

How is Vettel not on that list? He is 8th in Championships won and 11th in total races won

Paradise City · 27 Aug 2012, 17:30 (Ref:3125920)

Quote:

Originally Posted by wolfhound

But that is what makes the debate interesting.

Exactly. A useful discussion has to be within a realistic bandwith but it certainly is a justifiably contested area, an insoluable discussion and ultimately a matter of opinion dependent on numerous metrics some of which are unique to the opinion-holder. Statistics are important but they only tell one side of a multi-faceted story.

adam46 · 27 Aug 2012, 17:51 (Ref:3125929)

20; Alonso
19; Farina
18; Hamilton
17; Surtees
16; Scheckter
15; Brabham
14; Vettel
13; G.Hill
12; Mansell
11; Andretti
10; Prost
9; Moss
8; Ascari
7; Stewart
6; Nuvolari? (If he doesn't count then ommit, putting Button 20th)
5; G.Villeneuve
4; Schumacher
3; Senna
2; Clark
1; Fangio

Number Zero is of course the legendary Luca Badoer.

chunder · 27 Aug 2012, 17:56 (Ref:3125935)

Not sure I would put Gilles that high up really.

I know he didnt get the chance to really show us how good he was, but bhetter than double winner and breaker up of the GOAT domination Hakkinen?

No surely, Piquet? Fittipaldi? Cmon

Now I love Gilles, he will always be the greatest in my heart, but he threw away an awful lot and was never really around for long enough to rank with some of these guys.

I suppose it depends on what you are marking them on.

Marbot · 27 Aug 2012, 17:59 (Ref:3125937)

I think that I would also be going along the same lines that Adam43 has gone. With maybe an alteration here or there. After all, the question we are asked is who are your top 20 greatest drivers.

**Bononi** · 27 Aug 2012, 18:01 (Ref:3125938)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paradise City

Exactly. A useful discussion has to be within a realistic bandwith but it certainly is a justifiably contested area, an insoluable discussion and ultimately a matter of opinion dependent on numerous metrics some of which are unique to the opinion-holder. Statistics are important but they only tell one side of a multi-faceted story.

Spot on !

wolfhound · 27 Aug 2012, 18:01 (Ref:3125939)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dyson Mazda

How is Vettel not on that list? He is 8th in Championships won and 11th in total races won

Assuming you are referring to the BBC list then it is quite likely feature on it as the final nine have yet to be revealed and two of them are current drivers, and they will probably both be German.

**garcon** · 27 Aug 2012, 18:12 (Ref:3125942)

Quote:

Originally Posted by davyboy

I think I will too. Facts are indisputable and the greatest Grand Prix driver is already known... yet watch how people will do everything to have their opinion usurp reality and 'justify' why he shouldn't be number 1 and their's should be. It's good for a laugh I suppose

It depends whether you include the "what ifs".

Sure, based purely on stats there is only one, clear, winner. But then we have more races than we used to, so that isn't the objective view it may at first seem simply because it is biased towards more recent drivers.

In many sports there are those who could have been even greater were it not for a career ending injury, or in the case of motorsport, early death.

If Jim Clark had lived and completed a full career, he would have retired statistically the greatest ever and he would unquestionably still be rated as such today, eclipsing Fangio, Senna and Schumacher.

**Bononi** · 27 Aug 2012, 18:14 (Ref:3125944)

Quote:

Originally Posted by garcon

If Jim Clark had lived and completed a full career, he would have retired statistically the greatest ever and he would unquestionably still be rated as such today, eclipsing Fangio, Senna and Schumacher.

Would the same apply to Senna ?

**garcon** · 27 Aug 2012, 18:20 (Ref:3125946)

I think he would have won one or two more - and maybe Schumacher would have won one less.

chillibowl · 27 Aug 2012, 19:17 (Ref:3125970)

i dont have numbers handy but iirc Clark has a better win/start ratio than Schumi but then you can flip that argument by saying that schumi has been racing for longer and with less productive years the older he gets.

should longevity be used against a driver? Fangio certainly has both the wins per start advantage and raced during his 40's as well.

**Aysedasi** · 27 Aug 2012, 19:51 (Ref:3125980)

You can use whetever levellers you like - you have a blank canvass - no one can really set any rules......

**Bononi** · 27 Aug 2012, 20:30 (Ref:3126000)

The more you go back the more you wonder how hard is to compare drivers.

Paradise City · 27 Aug 2012, 21:07 (Ref:3126025)

Judging this question is like judging high art. There's no right answer and what a flop this question would be if there was one! 'No right answer' just makes the discussion more worthy, contentious and potentially enjoyable as long as one doesn't get too hung up on legalisms.

I do use stats as a spotlight to cast general parameters but this is not the be all and end all of things. A win might be hard won with a strong field, another win might be an easy one with a depleted field. They are only the same in the strictest legal sense [barring point distinctions] but they are very different in terms of human experience. Other eras have greater implications in regards to safety and death which makes differing demands in relation courage and on it goes.

The point being is that F1 isn't - and shouldn't be - a lifeless technical activity were 'the greatest' is measured by the driving operative that ticked the most boxes on the form issued by the sports bureaucracy. A mark of the greatest, for me, includes style, passion, cunning, courage and there's no form nor table that 'measures' that. These are questions for the heart and are very important to me when I mull on F1's 'greatest drivers'.

**bjohnsonsmith** · 27 Aug 2012, 21:29 (Ref:3126033)

Quote:

Originally Posted by garcon

It depends whether you include the "what ifs".

Sure, based purely on stats there is only one, clear, winner. But then we have more races than we used to, so that isn't the objective view it may at first seem simply because it is biased towards more recent drivers.

In many sports there are those who could have been even greater were it not for a career ending injury, or in the case of motorsport, early death.

If Jim Clark had lived and completed a full career, he would have retired statistically the greatest ever and he would unquestionably still be rated as such today, eclipsing Fangio, Senna and Schumacher.

If Alberto Ascari hadn't been killed; he had an impressive but very short career 1950-1955. 2X WDC, 13 wins, 17 podiums, 14 poles and there were roughly 6 GPs per season.

wolfhound · 27 Aug 2012, 22:06 (Ref:3126051)

Going back to the original list and looking at the wins to starts ratios. It makes for interesting reading in so far as statistics can but statistics never show the full story.

Fangio 47%
Ascari 41%
Clark 34%
M.Schumacher 30%
Stewart 27%
Prost 26%
Senna 25%
Vettel 24%
Moss 24%
Hamilton 19%
Mansell 17%
Alonso 16%
Lauda 15%
Haikkinen 12%
Piquet 11%
Brabham 11%
Rindt 10%
Fittipaldi 10%
G. Hill 8%
G Villenuve 6%

Other possibles

Raikkonen 11%
Peterson 8%
Button 6%

If Schumacher had not come back he would have a 36% win ratio putting him ahead of Clark.
The drivers who spend more time in good cars come out best in this list.
Still the cream rises to the top.

**bjohnsonsmith** · 27 Aug 2012, 22:34 (Ref:3126065)

Quote:

Originally Posted by wolfhound

Going back to the original list and looking at the wins to starts ratios. It makes for interesting reading in so far as statistics can but statistics never show the full story.

Fangio 47%
Ascari 41%
Clark 34%
M.Schumacher 30%
Stewart 27%
Prost 26%
Senna 25%
Vettel 24%
Moss 24%
Hamilton 19%
Mansell 17%
Alonso 16%
Lauda 15%
Haikkinen 12%
Piquet 11%
Brabham 11%
Rindt 10%
Fittipaldi 10%
G. Hill 8%
G Villenuve 6%

Other possibles

Raikkonen 11%
Peterson 8%
Button 6%

If Schumacher had not come back he would have a 36% win ratio putting him ahead of Clark.
The drivers who spend more time in good cars come out best in this list.
Still the cream rises to the top.

Interesting stuff. I've never been any good at maths. What's the % ratio of starts to points?

wolfhound · 27 Aug 2012, 23:01 (Ref:3126075)

Quote:

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

Interesting stuff. I've never been any good at maths. What's the % ratio of starts to points?

The prime difficulty with comparing points is the changes that have been made over the years.
One would need to decide on one system and redo all the points to that system to give a fair result.

**bjohnsonsmith** · 27 Aug 2012, 23:16 (Ref:3126085)

Quote:

Originally Posted by wolfhound

The prime difficulty with comparing points is the changes that have been made over the years.
One would need to decide on one system and redo all the points to that system to give a fair result.

Fairenough.

wnut · 28 Aug 2012, 03:39 (Ref:3126132)

I would love to see a start / crash ratio!

**bjohnsonsmith** · 28 Aug 2012, 05:20 (Ref:3126147)

Quote:

Originally Posted by wnut

I would love to see a start / crash ratio!

I think Andrea de Cesaris would probably top that. I don't always trust Wikipedia's accuracy but this makes quite good reading.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrea_de_Cesaris#Legacy

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