[Driver] F1's Greatest Drivers

[strider]

In this week's Autosport magazine there is a fascinating list of the 40 Greatest F1 Drivers, but now it's available on-line, too.

They sought the the opinions of 217 Grand Drivers, past and present, each of whom listed their top ten.

Personally #1 is a given and probably #2 as well, but I find myself disagreeing with the order of almost all the other drivers, even if only slightly! You even have the chance of voting whether they should be higher or lower than shown, but I'm not sure what difference that makes at the end of the day.

As a side-issue and without giving away too much, the drivers who raced in 2009 were in this order:

1. Fernando Alonso
2. Lewis Hamilton
3. Kimi Raikkonen
4. Sebastian Vettel
5. Jenson Button

I'll start you off at the bottom of the list: http://f1greatestdrivers.autosport.com/?driver=40

[emmer]

The full list (including positions 40-76) can be read here: http://forums.autosport.com/index.php?showtopic=120248

I'd like to know the individual votes each one gave.

By the way, as I write, 53% would like to see Schumacher lower on the list; 71% higher for Fangio; 83% higher for Jim Clark.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by strider

Personally #1 is a given and probably #2 as well, but I find myself disagreeing with the order of almost all the other drivers, even if only slightly!

I'm not sure about #1 being a given; there was his untimely death but then again how would Niki Lauda have faired if he hadn't crashed at the Nürburgring in 1976? The fact he came back was remarkable it self. Don't forget he came back to win a second time after that accident. What if his career hadn't been disrupted like that?

[ECW Dan Selby]

Wow, my opinion on this poll has completely deminished...

Pedro Lamy and Nakajima are IN this list, but get this, Barrichello and Brundle arn't?!?!

Absolutely mentalistically crazy.

Selby

[Marbot]

It's completely bonkers! Webber isn't even in the top ten!

[ECW Dan Selby]

hahahah

Selby

[raindog]

Prost in front of Jim Clark?
hmmmm......

[nea]

It's a strange list. Would anyone here list de Cesaris as a top 100 anything other than "Spectacular Crasher"?

[Graz]

Unbelieveble...but not surprising...

Who voted on this and would half of them be even aware of drivers before the 80's? There are some guys on that list who were total flops so what the hell are they doing on that list?

I always think Senna gets #1 status these days in these lists because he died, it adds a certain mystique to him particularly given it is relatively recent in people's memory, would have had lots of coverage and been more shocking given the infrequent deaths these days. He most probably was #1 but his death sways it more easily in his favour. Fangio, Schumacher or Clark could easily be #1 either. I know Clark was killed too but this was 40 years ago when probably most voting on this list weren't even born and also when this was at a time where death in racing was a regular occurance.

How can someone like Vettel who is in F1 for 5 minutes be ahead of various World Champions? I know he's good and could go on to be one of the greats but not yet!

Anyway, with names like Lamy, Modena, Nakajima, and Liuzi on a 'greatest of all time' list lacks any credibility. These guys must have voted for themselves, that's all I can think of.

I fear the history of the sport is not understood or shown any respect by the newer generation of drivers and is something that is fading from memory.

[nea]

The thing with this list though is that it was voted for by ex-F1 drivers. Maybe they know something about Lamy that we don't?

[MrTTraces]

Originally Posted by nea

It's a strange list. Would anyone here list de Cesaris as a top 100 anything other than "Spectacular Crasher"?

You mean De Crasharis??

No Taki Inoue! Disgraceful!

[nea]

I'm frankly astonished that Yuji Ide didn't make that list either.

[davyboy]

On pure achievement, the only basis of fact, Michael Schumacher should be number 1 on most lists. As soon as you ask people's opinions, then all sorts of other things enter the fray, so we shouldn't be surprised about anything we find on that list. The voters may be Grand Prix drivers but they know little more than we do about the vast majority on that list as they've never raced against them. In any event, its a good discussion point if nothing else, so I commend Autosport for doing it. Plus, it was great to see Ayrton Senna gracing the cover of Autosport for the first time in a very long time.

[jab]

Originally Posted by nea

The thing with this list though is that it was voted for by ex-F1 drivers. Maybe they know something about Lamy that we don't?

His Pug team mate Bourdais voted, so presumably for him. In the same way, Kazuki was probably voted for by his dad

Autosport might be all smug about the number of drivers that voted, but if you look through the list of who actually voted, you'll see that the majority are just nobodies who only had 1 or 2 starts - no Mansell, no Prost, no Hakkinen, no Piquet, and so on

[Timomies]

Satoru Nakajima voted his son, but Kazuki didn't give a vote to his dad Bad boy

[steve_r]

It would only take one vote to get a mention. If you ignore the bottom 30 drivers, you are left with a fairly comprehensive "who's who".

[krt917]

Originally Posted by jab

Autosport might be all smug about the number of drivers that voted, but if you look through the list of who actually voted, you'll see that the majority are just nobodies who only had 1 or 2 starts - no Mansell, no Prost, no Hakkinen, no Piquet, and so on

A little harsh claiming we're smug about it! The fact is all of us were involved over several months tracking down drivers and persuading them to do a list. Some of those not listed that didn't vote simply chose not to...

I would say a least that includes Mario Andretti, Jack Brabham, Jenson Button, Dan Gurney, Damon Hill, Jacky Ickx, Alan Jones, Robert Kubica, Riccardo Patrese, Bobby Rahal, Jody Scheckter, Michael Schumacher and John Surtees is rather more than a lost of 'nobodies'. And of course, most of the drivers who have started a GP didn't win one!

Of course, with such a relatively small sample size discrepancies will get on to the back of the list. My personal list is different to the one that came out of the exercise, but I think that you've got - for the most part - the right names in the top 30. Just perhaps not necessarily in the right order...

Kevin Turner
Autosport

[davyboy]

Absolutely right Kevin. Its an aggregation of peoples' opinions, that's all. Just so happens the people are current and ex-GP drivers so its definitely interesting to learn what they think. I think fair dues to you guys for making it happen, I imagine a huge amount of effort went into cajoling so many of these guys to participate.

[strider]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

I'm not sure about #1 being a given; there was his untimely death but then again how would Niki Lauda have faired if he hadn't crashed at the Nürburgring in 1976? The fact he came back was remarkable itself. Don't forget he came back to win a second time after that accident. What if his career hadn't been disrupted like that?

At the moment 72% agree with Senna being #1, but the voting on Schumacher is a 48%/52% split on him being lower, so that's about an even split.

The problem is that the 217 drivers were not given any criteria on how they should base their decisions. It was left to them to decide. For example, when the journalist Alan Henry wrote his book on a similar subject last year, he penalised Schumacher heavily for his dubious driving driving tactics. If you do that, I suppose you have to do something similar for Senna, although even Prost drove him off the road once in Suzuka.

As for Lauda, he was my personal favourite at the time, but I don't think you can enter 'what if?' discussions. If you do, you're into 'what if Senna had lived?' and 'what if Clark had lived?' etc.

[strider]

Originally Posted by davyboy

Absolutely right Kevin. Its an aggregation of peoples' opinions, that's all. Just so happens the people are current and ex-GP drivers so its definitely interesting to learn what they think. I think fair dues to you guys for making it happen, I imagine a huge amount of effort went into cajoling so many of these guys to participate.

I totally agree. It's a genuinely interesting discussion subject.

One of those involved said that trying get the drivers' opinions was "... like herding cats."

[jab]

Originally Posted by krt917

A little harsh claiming we're smug about it! The fact is all of us were involved over several months tracking down drivers and persuading them to do a list. Some of those not listed that didn't vote simply chose not to...

I would say a least that includes Mario Andretti, Jack Brabham, Jenson Button, Dan Gurney, Damon Hill, Jacky Ickx, Alan Jones, Robert Kubica, Riccardo Patrese, Bobby Rahal, Jody Scheckter, Michael Schumacher and John Surtees is rather more than a lost of 'nobodies'. And of course, most of the drivers who have started a GP didn't win one!

Of course, with such a relatively small sample size discrepancies will get on to the back of the list. My personal list is different to the one that came out of the exercise, but I think that you've got - for the most part - the right names in the top 30. Just perhaps not necessarily in the right order...

Kevin Turner
Autosport

Oh, don't get me wrong, I appreciate the effort and everything, but I just think it's a bit misleading. A heck of a lot of those drivers that contributed have less than a season's worth of starts. I mean, they're all giving their opinion, which is their opinion, but some are more valuable than others, if you know what I mean. It undermines it a bit, especially considering the way you've worded it to promote it - e.g. 270 wins but 91 of those come from 1 driver, and most of the rest come from a handful of others. The implication is that they know what they're talking about because these are the drivers and they raced alongside many of the greats, which isn't necessarily the case - look at Raphanel, for instance, whose only start was in a Coloni

[Retired]

Originally Posted by raindog

Prost in front of Jim Clark?
hmmmm......

ANYBODY in front of Jim Clark? hmmmm........

[strider]

Originally Posted by jab

Oh, don't get me wrong, I appreciate the effort and everything, but I just think it's a bit misleading. A heck of a lot of those drivers that contributed have less than a season's worth of starts. I mean, they're all giving their opinion, which is their opinion, but some are more valuable than others, if you know what I mean. It undermines it a bit, especially considering the way you've worded it to promote it - e.g. 270 wins but 91 of those come from 1 driver, and most of the rest come from a handful of others. The implication is that they know what they're talking about because these are the drivers and they raced alongside many of the greats, which isn't necessarily the case - look at Raphanel, for instance, whose only start was in a Coloni

On that theme and without wishing to be picky, this from my friend, Paul-Henri Cahier:

Since 1970, 18 World Champions are still alive, but 10 of them are missing in the list of voting drivers! *Jackie Stewart *Emerson Fittpaldi *Niki Lauda *Nelson Piquet Sr *Keke Rosberg *Alain Prost *Nigel Mansell *Jacques Villeneuve *Mika Hakkinen *Kimi Raikkonen All of them are alive and well, so why are they silent?

I'm afraid I asked if JYS being silent on any motorsport issue was some kind of record...

[Bononi]

I love those lists ! Every now and then they fuel massive discussions in our forum, specially off-season...

What's the name of that guy from the 30s again ???













Oh YES !

NUVOLARI !

Tazio Giorgio Nuvolari


Thanks to some veterans here (+10 years membership) I got to knew his fantastic career, tops.

http://tentenths.com/forum/showthread.php?t=6532

http://tentenths.com/forum/showthread.php?t=15040

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by strider

As for Lauda, he was my personal favourite at the time, but I don't think you can enter 'what if?' discussions. If you do, you're into 'what if Senna had lived?' and 'what if Clark had lived?' etc.

You are right about the 'what if?'. I was attempting, though unccessfully, to make Niki Lauda an exception because of his accident and then subsequent recovery. .