Best overtaking move in F1 history - Page 2

**Born Racer** · 24 Apr 2010, 00:32 (Ref:2678795)

The Hakkinen-Schumacher Spa one is an excellent move, but I don't know if it was thatgood. The gap was there on Zonta and Hakkinen just took it. It didn't require him to be massively late on the brakes.

**skycafe** · 24 Apr 2010, 00:42 (Ref:2678797)

Quote:

Originally Posted by richie_h

Mansel v. Piquet British GP in to stowe. cant remember the year.

This was my first thought to, because of the partisan crowd roaring in the background above the engine noise, it gave made the hair on your neck stand up. In retrospect, probably not the most sensational bit of race carft ever, but a very memorable one because of the crowd, and I was an ocean away and watching it on television.

deletraz · 24 Apr 2010, 01:03 (Ref:2678808)

Always fond of Montoya at the bus stop...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=giZu7-A2yS0

Matt · 24 Apr 2010, 04:03 (Ref:2678839)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joe Taylor

Agreed on this. Here's the onboard from Alonso, just takes the corner as if Schumacher isn't there: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yLZLxT1ZEPA

I never thought that move was really all that great. I mean, you can see that Schumacher clearly lifted before the actual corner to let Alonso go by.

My personal favorite:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNGuw...eature=related

deletraz · 24 Apr 2010, 05:48 (Ref:2678852)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matt

I never thought that move was really all that great. I mean, you can see that Schumacher clearly lifted before the actual corner to let Alonso go by.

My personal favorite:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNGuw...eature=related

The Japanese announcers seemed to enjoy that more than the Spanish announcers, didn't they?

Super Hans · 24 Apr 2010, 06:03 (Ref:2678853)

My favourites are 1) Mansell on Piquet, 2) Piquet on Senna and 3) Mika on TGF. Can I politely request that anyone posting video links indicate what you're linking to? Ta.

From recent years I'd nominate Alonso on Massa at the Nurburgring and Alonso on TGF at Suzuka. I'd also put forward Hamilton on Rosberg in Melbourne but for the fact that it may not have stuck if it wasn't for the yellows at the next turn.

ensign14 · 24 Apr 2010, 06:35 (Ref:2678860)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Born Racer

The Hakkinen-Schumacher Spa one is an excellent move, but I don't know if it was thatgood. The gap was there on Zonta and Hakkinen just took it. It didn't require him to be massively late on the brakes.

Thing is, Schumacher had tried to kill Mika the previous lap, so Hakkinen knew that it was an incredibly risky move...

Sodemo · 24 Apr 2010, 07:37 (Ref:2678868)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tWl4I...eature=related

And we thought our commentry was bad...

dyewat808 · 24 Apr 2010, 08:23 (Ref:2678886)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sodemo

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tWl4I...eature=related

And we thought our commentry was bad...

Almost silence in the middle of the overtake!

and +1 to the Hakkinen vs TGF move. Great one imo.

Sodemo · 24 Apr 2010, 08:54 (Ref:2678900)

I personally think the TGF and Mika move is a bit overrated, he was pretty much fully alongside Schu at the braking zone and there is loads of grip up the inside of Le Combe.

Moves that I like are dives down the inside on the brakes from miles back. One move that I never see mentioned is Rubens' scrap with Montoya at Suzuka in 2001, some really great moves from both drivers, the highlight being a massive dive down the inside of Montoya by Rubens from miles back into the Casino Triangle.

chunder · 24 Apr 2010, 09:11 (Ref:2678904)

Villeneive round the outside of Jones at Zandvoort in 79.

Mansell round Berger at Peralta in Mexico in 89?

Me on the last bend of Skegness in a Mini online!!

fourWheelDrift · 24 Apr 2010, 10:15 (Ref:2678922)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sodemo

I personally think the TGF and Mika move is a bit overrated, he was pretty much fully alongside Schu at the braking zone and there is loads of grip up the inside of Le Combe.

I agree, it was great television and a turning point in the race but really Mika had his wits about him and grabbed his opportunity but it didn't demand any particular car control or special skill beyond that.

strider · 24 Apr 2010, 11:27 (Ref:2678945)

Quote:

Originally Posted by fourWheelDrift

I agree, it was great television and a turning point in the race but really Mika had his wits about him and grabbed his opportunity but it didn't demand any particular car control or special skill beyond that.

There was a bit more to it than that. The first time Mika tried Schumi moved across and slightly damaged the front wing of the McLaren. When Mika did make the move there was some damp on the inside, which is probably why he moved back to the middle of the track so quickly. If nothing else, it was supremely brave and beautifully judged. Just because something is made to look easy doesn't mean that it is.

Sodemo · 24 Apr 2010, 14:16 (Ref:2678993)

Rubens on Montoya at Suzuka (1:36)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nx7IWpf6Ync

**bjohnsonsmith** · 25 Apr 2010, 00:37 (Ref:2679157)

Simoniz Daily Mail Race of Champions,
Brands Hatch, 17 March 1974.

Jacky Ickx overtaking Niki Lauda around the outside of Paddock Hill Bend, in the rain. Jacky Ickx went on to win, having started 11th on the grid, while Niki Lauda started 3rd. Never ever seen anything like it or since. What makes it all the more remarkable, was it was a 40 lap non-championship race, very wet and very cold. It was pure racing.

**bjohnsonsmith** · 25 Apr 2010, 01:35 (Ref:2679174)

Quote:

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

Simoniz Daily Mail Race of Champions,
Brands Hatch, 17 March 1974.

Jacky Ickx overtaking Niki Lauda around the outside of Paddock Hill Bend, in the rain. Jacky Ickx went on to win, having started 11th on the grid, while Niki Lauda started 3rd. Never ever seen anything like it or since. What makes it all the more remarkable, was it was a 40 lap non-championship race, very wet and very cold. It was pure racing.

I couldn't find any photos of the race, but this Michael Turner painting sort of captures the moment. It took me a while to find it.

steve_r · 26 Apr 2010, 12:03 (Ref:2679871)

Barcelona 91. Not so much for the overtake as such, but for the amazing iconic sight of Senna and Mansell just inches apart with sparks flying. Heres the photo link (cant access you tube in work)

http://globoesporte.globo.com/ESP/Ho...6151-EX,00.jpg

Suzuka 97 - Eddie Irvine overtook both Michael Schumacher AND Mika Hakkinen around the outside of the same corner.

What about a year or two earlier when Irvine overtook Senna to unlap himself

Of course, nothing is going to come close to Arnoux and Gilles Villeneuve duel, so we may as well close the thread now!

**Bononi** · 26 Apr 2010, 12:26 (Ref:2679883)

Quote:

Originally Posted by steve_r

What about a year or two earlier when Irvine overtook Senna to unlap himself

The rookie ! He was christened with a punch from Senna after the race

Speed-freak · 26 Apr 2010, 12:26 (Ref:2679884)

Quote:

Originally Posted by johnw

Hakkkinen on TGF at Spa.

Yes yes yes!!!

Marbot · 26 Apr 2010, 12:53 (Ref:2679902)

Flavio Briatore overtaking Ron Dennis et al, on his way to Eddie Jordan's motorhome-Spa 91.

wnut · 27 Apr 2010, 02:11 (Ref:2680268)

Gilles Villeneuve and Rene Arnoux 1979 French GP
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ccI3C...eature=related

I think the overtaking move at the beginning of the video where Villeneuve slides past Arnoux with all four wheels locked is great.
This dice because despite wheel banging and pushing and shoving neither of them found it necessry to put the opposition in the fence. This was racing at the highest level and sportsmanship too.

Monza 1971 was good too!

**bjohnsonsmith** · 27 Apr 2010, 02:28 (Ref:2680274)

Quote:

Originally Posted by wnut

Gilles Villeneuve and Rene Arnoux 1979 French GP
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ccI3C...eature=related

I think the overtaking move at the beginning of the video where Villeneuve slides past Arnoux with all four wheels locked is great.
This dice because despite wheel banging and pushing and shoving neither of them found it necessry to put the opposition in the fence. This was racing at the highest level and sportsmanship too.

Monza 1971 was good too!

That dice with Arnoux and Villeneuve was a bit of a classic. Dijon wasn't such a bad track. It's nice to see someone who can remember F1 prior to the TGF/Ferrari era.

wnut · 27 Apr 2010, 02:55 (Ref:2680282)

Thanks bjohnsonsmith.

What I really like about the French 79 and Monza 71 GPs is they represent motor racing as a sparring and racing contest, a very high speed game of tactical chess, and not just a single banzai move down the inside.
This is why I bang on about the cars needing to be able to race! There is a huge difference between a racing driver and a time trial driver!

**bjohnsonsmith** · 27 Apr 2010, 03:33 (Ref:2680290)

Quote:

Originally Posted by wnut

This is why I bang on about the cars needing to be able to race! There is a huge difference between a racing driver and a time trial driver!

That's what I used to like about racing. Ever since the introduction of the pit-stops, I always felt that element was lost. Until they are completely gone I don't think we'll see a return to racing as it was.

herowassenna · 27 Apr 2010, 04:29 (Ref:2680298)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matt

I never thought that move was really all that great. I mean, you can see that Schumacher clearly lifted before the actual corner to let Alonso go by.

My personal favorite:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNGuw...eature=related

I'm getting an idea here maybe you don't like Alonso??

Schumacher didn't really have a choice, Alonso had the correct line into 130R.
It's a corner that has always been taken flat by the best driver/car combos, therefore MS was going in too tight to get round. So he would have had to lift anyway. Alonso also is an incredibly brave driver. Telemetry showed he went into the corner flat at 208mph.
It was high speed game of chicken and MS didn't have the balls, to be honest. If they had made contact, it would have been "plane crash" wreckage.
In fact, when you think of McNish's accident at that corner, the car was destroyed completely. He was by himself.

It fascinates me as a question tbh. How many of these examples have been the underdog against the benchmark? Is that why they are memorable?
Drivers that dominate rarely have to pass anyone. Maybe thats why Senna's first lap at Donington was so memorable. He showed overtaking skills that had been forgotten, due to him being in a slower car.
Personally the Hakkinen move wasn't that impressive. He had a clear straight line speed advantage because his car was set up for dry conditions. Schumi had gone for a semi wet set-up and was defending. Too hard the previous lap!!

My favourite was Mansell around the outside of Berger. Similar performance cars against a driver who wasn't scared to mix it. The previous lap Berger had pushed into Mansell into the first corner. If ever you could read a cars body language, this was it. Mansell's Ferrari looked angry, darting about everywhere and into what was a top gear corner he drove around the outside of him.
It made me hold my breath! Stunning.
Let's not forget, the following year, a certain Senna overturned his car through the same corner trying to take it in 6th gear...

Last point. Ickx. Lauda, 1974; Villeneuve/ Arnoux 1979; Piquet/Senna 1986; Mansell/ Berger 1990; Senna/ Donington 1993; Villeneuve/ Schumi 1996; Hakkinen/ Schumi 2001; Alonso/ Schumi 2005.
We all talk about overtaking being non-existant now, but these examples stretch over a period of 31 years. Was it ever that much better? These are memorable because we are talking about the best drivers in the world capturing our attention. If overtaking was that plentiful, would it really be remembered?
Isn't this why we sit unhappily through a boring Grand Prix, 17, 18, 19 times a year, in the hope that we witness one truly unforgettable moment?

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