Is it time to equalise engines?

manwell · 2 Jul 2010, 03:40 (Ref:2720987)

Christian Horner is calling for an equalisation of the engines again.
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/84911
Whats everyones thoughts?

Personally i think its the way to go. I cant believe the teams all agreed to have an engine freeze a few years ago. The teams with less horsepower are always going to be at a disadvantage.
The Merc's seem to be the engine to have, so if you havent got one, your already behind the 8 ball from the start.

To all those who are saying that Red Bull are doing pretty well with their Renault power.... yes they are.
But thats all due to their chassis and set up. Things that CAN be changed.
So if things continue on as they are other teams are going to work out where Red Bulls advantage is and will change their cars to suit (ie. blown diffuser with exhaust).
Then it will all be down to the car with the most power.... the Mercedes powered teams.
How would all the other teams have liked it if there was a diffuser freeze, and Red Bull have their setup with seems to be superior, and everyone else has to keep the one they sarted the season with.
Its stupid, the engines need to be equalised, you cant have one element that will always give particular teams (Merc powered) such a big advantage that you cant do anything about.
It makes a mockery of the sport.

old man · 2 Jul 2010, 09:00 (Ref:2721022)

Absolutely no.

If there is no opportunity for technical development of engines we take away another area of research that can be beneficial for the industry as a whole. I really cannot believe Horner is saying this, would he also agree a spec chassis? Do we want F1 or just another race series? We have to have at least a few things that lift it above Formula Renault 3.5 or Formula S League.

Ridiculous idea IMO,

old man · 2 Jul 2010, 09:09 (Ref:2721026)

Quote:

Originally Posted by manwell

Christian Horner is calling for an equalisation of the engines again.
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/84911
Whats everyones thoughts?

Its stupid, the engines need to be equalised, you cant have one element that will always give particular teams (Merc powered) such a big advantage that you cant do anything about.
It makes a mockery of the sport.

It is what the sport is all about, it is up to the other engine development teams to work out what Mercedes is doing better than them just as the chassis teams are working out what Adrian Newey is doing better than them

ECW Dan Selby · 2 Jul 2010, 09:18 (Ref:2721029)

No - I think it's time they allowed a portion of the season (set amount of hours, or a short period of time for all teams) to develop the engine. I don't like all of this equalisations malarky, it's completely against what F1's about. That's not competition. It's the equivilant of having an egg and spoon race and gluing all the kid's eggs to their spoon so they can all win...

Selby

phoenix · 2 Jul 2010, 09:31 (Ref:2721038)

Two or three things concern me about this.

The first is that who is to say that the Renault engine has less power than the Mercedes? Different aero packages on the different cars would make it virtually impossible to speculate that the engine in one car is more powerful than a different engine in another car, without knowing the amount of drag each car has too. Surely that can only be guessed at?

If I recall correctly, Kubica was fastest of all the cars through the speed trap in Montreal. Again the aero setup it a huge factor, but the engine can't be too far off the mark, surely?

Last point is that Renault have already had one equalisation upgrade that was not granted to any other engine manufacturer. Someone will know the date for sure, but I think it was either at the end of 2007 or 2008 in time for the following season.

I recall this was finally agreed to by the other teams because the Renault engine was the first to be 'frozen' and so out of step with the later 'homologated' engines of the other manufacturers. The Renault engine was first introduced when traction control was still in use - and from memory the rev limit was higher than 18000 rpm back then too. Renault would have certainly optimized the engine design taking into account these factors.

So, is the Renault engine down on power and if so as they have already had one bite of the cherry, should they be allowed another?

Please Note: Before any accusations start, I am not anti Renault or Red Bull or any of their drivers.

duke_toaster · 2 Jul 2010, 11:10 (Ref:2721070)

Quote:

Originally Posted by ECW Dan Selby

No - I think it's time they allowed a portion of the season (set amount of hours, or a short period of time for all teams) to develop the engine. I don't like all of this equalisations malarky, it's completely against what F1's about. That's not competition. It's the equivilant of having an egg and spoon race and gluing all the kid's eggs to their spoon so they can all win...

Selby

Off topic comment alert
I have to type this or my brain will explode!

Surely gluing the eggs on to the spoons would make the race more predictable as it would effectively be a 60m sprint ...

Thanks for reading, you've been a wonderful audience. Don't forget to try the veal and tip your waitress. We now return you to the topic

ECW Dan Selby · 2 Jul 2010, 11:13 (Ref:2721071)

Exactly! And we don't want predictable

Selby

browney · 2 Jul 2010, 12:14 (Ref:2721108)

Equalisation may not be the answer but a freeze on engine development is stupid. Why should a some teams have an advantage for years just because their supplier had the more powerful engine at the precise moment that the engine designs were frozen.

At least engine development is interesting, why does the FIA think we would rather talk about little bits and peices of precision aerodynamics than engine differences?

old man · 2 Jul 2010, 12:54 (Ref:2721120)

tblincoe · 2 Jul 2010, 13:26 (Ref:2721138)

If the engines are going to remain frozen until 2013 when the new engine formula is introduced, then it makes all the sense in the world to equalize the current engines in some form or fashion. To freeze-in advantages or disadvantages is ridiculous for a number of reasons that don't require further explanation...

Like others have said, the engine freeze is the larger problem in this issue. I can understand the freeze's intent in terms of cost control, but there are certainly better ways of controlling costs than halting development all-together.

ptclaus98 · 2 Jul 2010, 14:59 (Ref:2721170)

Quote:

Originally Posted by manwell

Christian Horner is calling for an equalisation of the engines again.
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/84911
Whats everyones thoughts?

Personally i think its the way to go. I cant believe the teams all agreed to have an engine freeze a few years ago. The teams with less horsepower are always going to be at a disadvantage.
The Merc's seem to be the engine to have, so if you havent got one, your already behind the 8 ball from the start.

To all those who are saying that Red Bull are doing pretty well with their Renault power.... yes they are.
But thats all due to their chassis and set up. Things that CAN be changed.
So if things continue on as they are other teams are going to work out where Red Bulls advantage is and will change their cars to suit (ie. blown diffuser with exhaust).
Then it will all be down to the car with the most power.... the Mercedes powered teams.
How would all the other teams have liked it if there was a diffuser freeze, and Red Bull have their setup with seems to be superior, and everyone else has to keep the one they sarted the season with.
Its stupid, the engines need to be equalised, you cant have one element that will always give particular teams (Merc powered) such a big advantage that you cant do anything about.
It makes a mockery of the sport.

How about we just end the damn freeze?

neiltb · 2 Jul 2010, 15:01 (Ref:2721172)

only if we allow an equalisation of chassis and aero.

Tall Chris · 2 Jul 2010, 20:07 (Ref:2721266)

But some will always be more equal than others

Senna-F1God · 2 Jul 2010, 23:36 (Ref:2721331)

NO!!!

It´s time to let F1 be free and push for a new start for engine development:

We ALL want 1.0 littre turbos unrestricted that will have to last the whole season untouched. They would achieve 700bhp easely...and would be based on roadcar blocks.

Running Biofuels...with electric motors on the four wheels, as truly way of Hybridization. The energy would have to be stored without limits in Big battery packs installed on the splitter skid.

Then racing would be REAL: manufacturers would find a perfect platform for enviroment friendly techologies relevant to car production...cars would be harder to drive and it would be easier to make mistaques, therefore FANS would see a much improved SHOW, with TONS of overtaking moves.

**bjohnsonsmith** · 3 Jul 2010, 00:52 (Ref:2721340)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Senna-F1God

Running Biofuels...with electric motors on the four wheels, as truly way of Hybridization. The energy would have to be stored without limits in Big battery packs installed on the splitter skid.

When during a GP would the electric motors be used?

ptclaus98 · 3 Jul 2010, 00:58 (Ref:2721341)

Quote:

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

When during a GP would the electric motors be used?

I believe that was sarcasm.

**bjohnsonsmith** · 3 Jul 2010, 01:14 (Ref:2721343)

Quote:

Originally Posted by ptclaus98

I believe that was sarcasm.

If it was it certainly went over my head.

manwell · 3 Jul 2010, 02:34 (Ref:2721350)

Quote:

Originally Posted by old man

Absolutely no.

If there is no opportunity for technical development of engines we take away another area of research that can be beneficial for the industry as a whole. I really cannot believe Horner is saying this, would he also agree a spec chassis? Do we want F1 or just another race series? We have to have at least a few things that lift it above Formula Renault 3.5 or Formula S League.

Ridiculous idea IMO,

Quote:

Originally Posted by old man

It is what the sport is all about, it is up to the other engine development teams to work out what Mercedes is doing better than them just as the chassis teams are working out what Adrian Newey is doing better than them

Huh?!?!
I dont really understand the logic behind either of your posts.

There is an engine freeze.... meaning you cant do anything to the engine except for reliability modifications that have to be approved by the FIA.

Your first post seems to imply that they shouldnt take away the technical development of the engines.
Well thats already been taken away with the engine freeze. There is no development (save for the few modifications allowed around the intake and exhaust)

And in your second post you say its up to "other engine development teams to work out what Mercedes is doing better".
Even if other engine manufacturers work out what Mecredes is doing better they cant do anything about it due to the engine freeze.

The only fair option is to either equalize the engines or get rid of the engine freeze to allow the teams to develop their engines.
Otherwise teams are stuck with a disadvantage that the cant do anything about.

dsg · 3 Jul 2010, 03:55 (Ref:2721353)

Quote:

Originally Posted by neiltb

only if we allow an equalisation of chassis and aero.

They do.

**bjohnsonsmith** · 3 Jul 2010, 05:30 (Ref:2721362)

Quote:

Originally Posted by manwell

The only fair option is to either equalize the engines or get rid of the engine freeze to allow the teams to develop their engines. Otherwise teams are stuck with a disadvantage that the cant do anything about.

Unfortunately I don't think the current economic climate will allow the FIA have any room for maneuver, regarding an increase in the budget cap.

old man · 3 Jul 2010, 09:31 (Ref:2721394)

Quote:

Originally Posted by manwell

Huh?!?!

The only fair option is to either equalize the engines or get rid of the engine freeze to allow the teams to develop their engines.
Otherwise teams are stuck with a disadvantage that the cant do anything about.

OK, fair point but I feel that once we allow equalization into the frame we move towards a spec series. Whilst engines are frozen development will continue in preparation for the next generation. I don't really agree with either and perhaps Horner should be arguing for lifting the freeze

Armco Bender · 3 Jul 2010, 10:31 (Ref:2721419)

Bring Back The DFV.....

Wheels of Fire · 3 Jul 2010, 11:11 (Ref:2721431)

in a motorsport class like formula 1,the rule of the freeze engine is a no-sense law,teams must develop their engines...

Senna-F1God · 3 Jul 2010, 17:22 (Ref:2721516)

Quote:

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

When during a GP would the electric motors be used?

Actually would be up to the teams to decide how to integrate that system (mandatory) but guess what engineers would end up...by having traction on FOUR wheels instead of just two...

Particularly, given the freedom in terms of energy storage-power disposal, F1 engineers would just deploy an active gearbox that would have just 5 gears with wide ratios, using battery power just for better acceleration, with a mandatory electric mode as substitute for the first & second gears.

Problems-benefits in terms of weight: a much balanced weight distribution, with a lighter gearbox, and electric motors adding same weight to the four corners of the cars...

This solution would mean no engine revving during both pit-boxes and the first seconds of a race start.

Anyway, freedom is just a better prospective than having this frozen disparity perpetuated over the times:

Mercedes FO108X = 765Bhp
Renault RS27-2010 = 755Bhp
Ferarri 065 = 750 Bhp
Cosworth CA2010 = 743bhp

duke_toaster · 3 Jul 2010, 20:49 (Ref:2721565)

Out of interest, where did you get those figures?

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