Save the Nurburgring

[Paulaweybridge]

Happy New Year everyone,

I hope this is the right place for this!

This morning on Autoblog UK I saw this article.

See: http://uk.autoblog.com/2010/12/30/save-the-nurburgring/



The Nürburgring is a popular attraction for many driving and riding enthusiasts from all over the world, mostly because of its history and the challenge it provides. However, it seems that despite the recent investment of 350+ million EUR public money; all the fancy debt-causing new buildings and their roller coasters are sitting idle with virtually no visitors.

Rumours from the 'Save the Nürburgring' website claim that the shops are doing no business and the BMW dealership no buyers. Also, we understand that the so called 'Formula 1 Experience' rollercoaster has had its top speed cut from 100mph to a less than credible 40mph. Apparently, the website claims this is down to shoddy engineering and/or building techniques.

This is of course bad news for all car enthusiasts, but worse could be potential plans to increase the cost of lapping the infamous circuit. Another quick fix could be to rent the track out for more non-racing events, which again will make it more difficult for 'Green Hell' fans to get on the track.

The link to the Save the Nürburgring site is below if you're interested.

http://savethering.org/

and: http://www.gopetition.com/petition/41698.html

I have just signed ...

Paula

[terence]

Knee jerk reaction perhap's? Cant ever see the ring being closed,that area of Germany is dependent on the revenue it generates,manufacturers ensure its constant use. Of course,it might have something to do with Germanys current economic situation.

[mountainstar]

I'm worried as the amount of debt for all that junk they built is so much I don't know how you would overcome it.

The track is already booked to the max and as much as manufacturers like the track, if the costs get too much, they will find other alternatives, even if they are not as great.

The answer I think will have to lay with the buildings they built turning a profit, somehow they are going to have to generate traffic through there.

[bella]

i suspect with the new buildings that if they had just renewed the grandstand and museum they'd have struggled to pay the loans they needed to build it. by introducing some new attractions they hoped for a new influx of people, and those who had already been perhaps revisiting. it is a bonus having all the retail stuff undercover at the gp because it's ALWAYS cold wet and/or windy

i think the way germany is holding the race at alternate circuits is the way forward for a lot of places though, especially for circuits where they're struggling to pay bernie's levy. we can only hope the return of schumacher packs the stands out a bit more - in 09 me and a friend paid 99€ each for a lucky dip ticket about a week before the race and got €400 prime first corner seats.... there was a fair amount of empty space around us too.

[mountainstar]

Originally Posted by bella

i suspect with the new buildings that if they had just renewed the grandstand and museum they'd have struggled to pay the loans they needed to build it. by introducing some new attractions they hoped for a new influx of people, and those who had already been perhaps revisiting. it is a bonus having all the retail stuff undercover at the gp because it's ALWAYS cold wet and/or windy

i think the way germany is holding the race at alternate circuits is the way forward for a lot of places though, especially for circuits where they're struggling to pay bernie's levy. we can only hope the return of schumacher packs the stands out a bit more - in 09 me and a friend paid 99€ each for a lucky dip ticket about a week before the race and got €400 prime first corner seats.... there was a fair amount of empty space around us too.

I haven't seen the facilities in person, but for the price that was paid, there seems to be a fair bit of corruption that happened along the way. And if that was legitimate then I'd say they way over did it for the amount of revenue you could possibly generate. I have some personal knowledge of dollar figures in regards to building structures around race tracks and this sounds like they built the taj mahal that could never generate the revenues worthy to justify the costs.

[bella]

it is very... out of place up there. structually it reminds me a bit of the new pits at spa, the same sort of dull functional thing but it has more glass to let the light in and there's obviously a rollercoaster running through the middle of it (never before have i said "i can't see a bit of the track, there's a rollercoaster in the way"). the museum is just a re-build but in a snazzier box (must go and have a look at that this year), and the hotel is obviously new and *very* nice, something you'd expect to see in a modern city centre.

the build quality seemed good (they were still finishing up at grand prix time), but a long way above what was required. i don't know how long they're expecting it to last but it's gonna have to be maintenance free...

you can't really fault the optimism, and the fact that they did already have a good year-round flow of people thanks to the nordschleife and the museum. but everything else? hmm.

(on a side note, the cash-free oyster card style system they've started to operate since the rebuild is very convenient. they get your money in advance, and you don't have to fumble around for cash whilst you're buying your between-race bratwurst. or your tourist lap. again it's a bit experimental, but it saves keeping cash floats all over the circuit)

[mountainstar]

Originally Posted by bella

it is very... out of place up there. structually it reminds me a bit of the new pits at spa, the same sort of dull functional thing but it has more glass to let the light in and there's obviously a rollercoaster running through the middle of it (never before have i said "i can't see a bit of the track, there's a rollercoaster in the way"). the museum is just a re-build but in a snazzier box (must go and have a look at that this year), and the hotel is obviously new and *very* nice, something you'd expect to see in a modern city centre.

the build quality seemed good (they were still finishing up at grand prix time), but a long way above what was required. i don't know how long they're expecting it to last but it's gonna have to be maintenance free...

you can't really fault the optimism, and the fact that they did already have a good year-round flow of people thanks to the nordschleife and the museum. but everything else? hmm.

(on a side note, the cash-free oyster card style system they've started to operate since the rebuild is very convenient. they get your money in advance, and you don't have to fumble around for cash whilst you're buying your between-race bratwurst. or your tourist lap. again it's a bit experimental, but it saves keeping cash floats all over the circuit)

Well I'll have to check it out in person sometime. I have so many motorsport oriented places to go and things to do that it's a staggering list to conquer. Probably stood a chance of going over there for work, but the global financial bomb put paid to that.

[JVD]

But this rollercoaster.. i've never seen it working.. They just trow a lot of money away with this attraction

I hope the ring will never go away, such a great track and always nice racing. And since a few years, They just have a own village! maybe that was the problem, all the investments.. i don't hope so.

[Eddy V]

Originally Posted by terence bower

Cant ever see the ring being closed,that area of Germany is dependent on the revenue it generates,manufacturers ensure its constant use.

Don't forget that the local council wanted to shut down the place many years ago. Germany became overly green in those days.
Oddly enough the council still isn't very keen on the place today, too many big accidents on and off track during the week being the main issue.
There is enough tourist activity in the area according to them, even without the track.

But doesn't the story of the Ring sound a bit like what happened at Donington?

[terence]

Except that the owner's of the ring actualy want to keep it Eddy. The investment alone is enough reason not to close it,obviously one reason why it was invested in the first place. Take out this world famous attraction and the area would become a drive through village out in the hill's [very attractive of course]The shear volume of people who make long trip's to pay to drive or ride the circuit would simply dissapear. Grun Holle Cafe? I certainly wouldn't mind having such a gold mine!

[Paulaweybridge]

Hi everyone,

A friend of mine who also owns a Mazda MX-6 sent me this the other day.

Not looking so good is it?

Here's a YouTube video of him driving around the ring last summer.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2T7CUAtxNXA

He sure gathered up that spin rather well ...

Paula

" Have you seen the disaster thats happening at the Nurburgring? Its been taken over by people who have no clue how to run it and is barely open in 2011. On most days the track is only open from 5pm to 7pm for the public and the chances of getting consecutive days track time are limited as well. Have a look at the calendar, June is shocking! We had planned a trip June 6th-10th but have now had to change it all to late May or it would never happen. Might be the last year of the Ring as we know it! "

http://www.nuerburgring.de/en/angebo...dschleife.html

[lemansfan]

Nürburgring Forum is closed . C'ant believe This .

http://20832.com/forum_e/

[Adam43]

Originally Posted by Paulaweybridge

" Have you seen the disaster thats happening at the Nurburgring? Its been taken over by people who have no clue how to run it and is barely open in 2011. On most days the track is only open from 5pm to 7pm for the public and the chances of getting consecutive days track time are limited as well. Have a look at the calendar, June is shocking! We had planned a trip June 6th-10th but have now had to change it all to late May or it would never happen. Might be the last year of the Ring as we know it! "

http://www.nuerburgring.de/en/angebo...dschleife.html

I thought that was normal! Summer months, especially June are very busy with other stuff. Most days the public time is only 5-7pm.

[bella]

yeah, that looks normal to me too, weekends all day, weekdays after work. no real point in opening it during the day midweek because well... everyone's got jobs to go to instead of arse about on the nordschleife. storm in a teacup over that one.

[terence]

Ah,the light has shone!

[Paulaweybridge]

I'll tell my friend ...

Originally Posted by terence bower

Ah,the light has shone!

[BobHWS]

I have visited the Nurburging twice, once in 2007 (only briefly) and once in June this year (a two-day visit). One thing that struck me on my recent visit (besides how epic a place it is) was the extensiveness of the facilities that had been built next to the modern F1 track since my previous visit (as seen in my photo): two big modern hotels, a casino, a big auditorium, a shopping mall with a roller-coaster, etc.



What also struck me was that most of these facilities were pretty much idle despite the fact that a fairly significant event (the Eifelrennen historic races) was going on during my visit. It was not a huge spectator event like an F1 race or the 24 hour race, but those spectators and event participants who were there were not much interested in all the new facilities that some now call "Nuro-Disney." They were there for the cars, the races and the track itself (both the modern track and the Nordschleife were in use).

When I got home I searched for more information on the changes that I had seen at the Ring. Reading some stuff on the Web, I learned that all is not well there.

I searched for a thread about the serious problems facing the Nurburgring and I could not find anything recent. So I'm reviving this thread, because I think the problems have gotten worse recently and, given that the Ring is one of the most famous tracks in the world, it's a topic that deserves further discussion here.

However, despite the track's serious financial and management problems (as evidenced by the recent declaration of bankruptcy), it's not easy to find accurate information about the situation in English. So I'll start off the revival of this thread with some links to articles and Web sites that provide background information, news and opinion about the problem.

Save the Ring Web site

Save the Ring Facebook Page

Bridge to Gantry

A blog post from an English-speaking local:

Mike's Blog: How Come the Ring is in Trouble

An article from Deutsche Welle, Germany's international broadcaster:

DW: The Nürburgring - from prestige project to catastrophe

Stories from Jalopnik.com:

Bernie Ecclestone Might Actually Have A Heart, Doesn’t Want Nürburgring To Die

Save The Nürburgring!

[BobHWS]

Here's another good article from Germany's international broadcaster, Deutsche Welle. It's a good summary of how the Ring came to find itself in such a mess.

Nürburgring: If you build it, they will come?
Mark Hallam
July 21, 2012
DW.de

How do you take the world's most famous racetrack, with relatively small financial woes, and turn it into a half-billion-euro hole in less than a decade? The answer's simple: renovate it with things it doesn't need.

A bold rescue effort gone awry. That's the verdict many have reached on the multimillion-euro restructuring project for the Nürburgring since the facility's state owners filed for insolvency earlier this week.

That assessment isn't technically false - the plan was very bold, and it has gone utterly awry - but it barely scratches the surface.

The iconic German racetrack had long been plagued by relatively minor ills, but the proposed "cure" for these was a cancer even before the lights went green.

Wilhelm Hahne, an automotive journalist who moved to the western Eifel region decades ago to be near the track, came out of retirement in the late '90s to disdainfully document developments at the circuit. Now in his eighties, he's still posting on his aptly-named website, motor-kritik.de, most days. For years, he has lamented what he describes as flagrant mismanagement of the circuit.

"That's why what is currently happening is no surprise to me," Hahne told DW. "But the way in which it happened was raw stupidity. It was so stupid, so primitive, that I'm lost for words..."

Here's an article from EVO:

Nürburgring in trouble
The Nurburgring is in financial trouble, and as debts mount, the future of the circuit looks uncertain.
EVO.co.uk
July 24, 2012

...The crowds never came, and the hotel, casino and theme park just weren’t making any money. They were however taking business away from other local businesses that depend on visitors to the track.

The company in charge of running the circuit and the huge new complex, Nurburgring Gmbh, is owned by the German state of Rhineland-Palatinate, but this wasn’t always the plan. It was all part of a scheme to privatise the Nurburgring, but like the crowds, the investment never came - and the state has been supporting the circuit ever since. Total debts now amount to over €497million, which includes a €330million loan from the state-owned Investitions und Strukturbank...

...With everything so up in the air, it’s hard to predict what will happen to the popular ‘tourist days’, but the tickets have already become more expensive at €26 for a single lap and €1445 for a year pass to the circuit – an 8% increase year-on-year. Availability of the tourist days has also decreased, with the big manufacturers and tyre companies taking up more track time than ever.

Free-and-easy access to the 'Ring has been under threat for a while; with a number of fatalities every year and increasing pressure from safety groups demanding more controls to prevent deaths. Depending on what happens to the business side of the Nurburgring, it's possible that the 'tourist days' could be dropped entirely, as the financial shortfall could easily be made up from various manufacturers already striving for more dedicated time at the track.

[BobHWS]

Bernie Ecclestone to Buy Embattled Nurburgring?
gtspirit.com
July 27, 2012

Rumours have surfaced that Bernie Ecclestone Ecclestone is looking into buying the embattled Nurburgring, Die Rheinpfalz newspaper reported on Thursday, citing an interview with the ‘F1 Supremo’.

The German newspaper did not reveal the specifics of the deal involving the 81-year old Ecclestone, who declined to comment on the price he is willing to pay for the insolvent circuit. But the 83-year-old billionaire was not prepared to stage Formula 1 races there at his own risk, nor forego the sanctioning fee for 2013, as was previously reported in the German media. Further details regarding the sale of the Nürburgring to Ecclestone are scarce and a timetable has not been disclosed...

[terence]

Problems started with the hiring of a man with so many promise's he knew he could not keep,nor actually cared about keeping! As for BE,I suppose it is just about possible but more likely money will come from another source. Beats me that the manufacturers who were being shafted by the Lindner mob,dont get together and buy the place. All prices should be dropped [2Euro surcharge for a plastic coffee container?,that really isnt the way to get things moving! it is so typical of 'if it is not making enough profit,raise the pricing' modern day thinking.
Make the whole thing more accessible to the hoards of fans who descend on the place just about every weekend would love to spend their money. Three years would make a huge difference to the current financial standing.15Euro for the first lap,buy more laps and use a descending scale,12.50 for the next and so on.
I am spending more and more time there these days[soon becoming a permanent resident] what would become of the region if there were no Nurburgring? Would farming support the area?
Weed out those people who are filling their own pockets and allow local people/business's to run it. Theres a good starting point with all of that scrap metal by the 'Lindner Complex',you know,that blot that was built without building permission!

[Adam43]

Nurburbring, the Lotus of circuits.

[BobHWS]

The legislature of the German state of Rhineland-Palatinate approved a loan that will allow the Ring to keep operating for awhile.

It remains to be seen what will be done with the useless infrastructure (roller coaster, casino, meeting hall and shopping mall) that was mostly funded by the same government. As mentioned in the article, at least the state government admitted that it made a mess of things.

German state digs deep to keep Nürburgring afloat
DW.de
August 1, 2012

...Lawmakers in the western German state of Rhineland-Palatinate agreed on Wednesday to release hundreds of millions of euros to keep one of the world's most famous racetracks, the Nürburgring, afloat...

The 254 million euros ($312 million) are to guarantee a loan for the circuit, which has hosted Formula One's German Grand Prix race on numerous occasions. This will allow the company that operates the track, Nürburgring GmbH, to service a 330 million-euro bank loan and continue operating...

...[Premier Kurt]Beck conceded that "errors have been committed" in the course of an ill-fated decision to build an amusement park at the track, which is 90 percent owned by the state. He also said he wanted to apologize to the people of the state, in particular those of the Eifel region where the track is located.

[BobHWS]

Looks like the pressure is on Bernie to help the Ring and keep it in the game of hosting an F1 race every other year.

Ecclestone continues Nurburgring negotiations
Bernie Ecclestone admits to meeting Nurburgring circuit officials in bid to save 2013 German GP.
crash.net

Bernie Ecclestone has revealed his aim of returning F1 action to the Nurburgring next season, despite the famous Eifel venue falling into serious financial difficulties in recent weeks...

The local Rheinland-Palatinate regional parliament appeared to have come to the circuit's rescue after its budget committee approved a €254m loan guarantee, which would allow the 'Ring to continue operating while servicing its existing debt, but the European Union has since decided that the state aid could contravene its regulations...

"I am currently in negotiations with the officials at the Nurburgring," Ecclestone told the Rhein-Zeitung newspaper over the weekend, "We need to keep the German race, so we'll do the best we can to sort this out. The aim is to have race at the Nurburgring in 2013."

[chunder]

Lol

Bernie couldnt give a flaying damn about a track closing. All he cares about being a businessman is that the Ring can afford to host the race?

He knows that no matter who hosts the arce they will get a return as F1 is very popular in Germany, and they might get a European race as a bonus.

Bernie couldnt give a stuff about the ring and its issues, all he is concerned with is the F1 race and whether they can afford to pay him the fees to host the race.

He might be able to be a little flexible with that, but I somehow doubt he will suddenly buy the Nordschleife!!

[BobHWS]

Originally Posted by chunder

Lol
Bernie couldnt give a stuff about the ring and its issues, all he is concerned with is the F1 race and whether they can afford to pay him the fees to host the race.

In general, I agree with your characterization of Bernie's attitude toward the Ring. However, he does have a problem. He needs to have a race in Germany, but the two tracks that have been hosting the race in recent years can no longer afford to do so every year. They each might be able to host it every other year, but even that is not a sure thing now.

What other track in Germany is willing and able to host F1? If the German GP goes away, that could hasten the departure of Mercedes from F1, which would be a bad thing for the prestige of F1. Bernie might be forced to lower his rights fee for the German GP, just as he was forced to keep his rights fee reasonable for Montreal.