Vettel (DEU) vs Webber (AUS) part 3

[chunterer]

Nick Heidfeld!

[HughGJohnson]

Originally Posted by Marbot

Out of all of the drivers in F1, either this season or last season, only one driver actually bothered to go and visit the Pirelli factory last year. No prizes for guessing who that was.

Is there a prize for guessing which thread you meant to post that in?

[Marbot]

Originally Posted by HughGJohnson

Is there a prize for guessing which thread you meant to post that in?

The answer to the question is: Vettel. I thought that it was obvious?

He's also most likely to stay behind after a race, more than any other driver, talking to his engineers, long after all the others have left. In contrast to that, Webber left the circuit at Monza, long before the race had finished.

Vettel is doing exactly what Schumacher did. That's part of the German mentality, I guess. Attention to detail.

[Mr V]

Originally Posted by Marbot

The answer to the question is: Vettel. I thought that it was obvious?

Although i didn't know that, the answer (or your insinuation) was obvious.

[HughGJohnson]

Originally Posted by Marbot

The answer to the question is: Vettel. I thought that it was obvious?

Obviously not. Having no idea that it was Vettel and seeing no other reference to this thread I thought you had posted in the wrong thread. I don't think that's too unreasonable considering your signature... had there been any mention of work ethic or research or whatever before, it would have been obvious.

[garcon]

It looked pretty obvious to me...

[OZ_HCR32]

Hang on, dont hang me out to dry Read what I posted

There is no denying that Webber was left for dead for the best part of the season. He is being out qualified, out paced, out raced and IMO that was evident in Hungary where he felt he had to roll the dice to even have a hope. Ditto Monza where he was trying for too much in the first few laps to try and get on level pegging with Vettel and the leaders.

But, my point is in isolation there is nothing really wrong with is current race pace and his ability to move through the field for position amongst the top tier drivers. Its not better then Vettels, but its about there. Close enough that its not the obvious problem. Where he is losing out is in his starts and to a lesser extent his quali. Where Vettel is leaving all for dead in his ability to qualify, not make mistakes and pump out fast laps only when its required.

I suppose its easy to read my attempt to critique Webber as an attempt to defend him

How many fastest laps has Webber had? Shows that he is having to push harder in races to recover from bad positions much like Button on occasion. If he can just get the car off the line, and not be so crap and the first lap it will be interesting to see if he can press Vettel like Hamo and Button have done.

He needs 2/3 races to be like Silverstone and 1/3 where the roles are reversed. i recognise that this isnt happening because Seb is simply too good at present, my point is trying to critique where he is going wrong. Small things make a huge difference

...and HughGJohnson...agree 100%. His pace and race craft are fine....not better, but not the problem. Its the other areas where he is being left behind

[Razzzor]

I disagree that Webber has better racecraft. Webber isn't as good at looking after the car and tyres as Vettel. He almost always has to pit first. And at least in the first part of the season that was then forcing Vettel to pit as well to cover him, even though he was probably being much more conservative on his tyres. This new no refueling rule, leaving cars on new tyres much quicker, is to Webbers advantage this year over Vettel.

The reason why Webber often is quite quick in races against Vettel is because he simply pushes all race long. Even when he's second and several seconds behind Vettel with 10 laps to go, he still won't give up and pushes like mad. It's a bit stupid at times. Vettel on the other hand builds a gap, then just manages it and only pushes when he needs to.

I think there's a good chance Webber would have finished second at Monza. He'd have stopped early to jump the McLarens and Schumi and made short work of Alonso.

[Oran Park Forever]

Originally Posted by [B

OZ_HCR32[/B];2956147] If he can just get the car off the line, and not be so crap and the first lap it will be interesting to see if he can press Vettel......... Its the other areas where he is being left behind

You've just answered your own question! Those "other areas" are skill & ability levels that Webber will never, EVER be able to match Vettel on! . How many times do we need to see it play out? It's not his fault, it's just a fact.........& as previously stated, 'fastest laps' are a pointless argument.......unless you win the race as well! Otherwise it's just like winning the "encouragement award" ribbon!

It will forever bemuse (& amuse!) me why some still believe Webber is a match for Vettel. How many knock out punches is it going to take?


.

[OZ_HCR32]

Originally Posted by Oran Park Forever

It will forever bemuse (& amuse!) me why some still believe Webber is a match for Vettel. How many knock out punches is it going to take?

.

Originally Posted by OZ_HCR32

I suppose its easy to read my attempt to critique Webber as an attempt to defend him

My point about fastest laps was to highlight that he spends every race on the back foot. Not saying he is quicker in a race. My memory has it that he didnt have near as many fastest laps last year as he was more comfortably on the general pace of the weekend

[wnut]

Originally Posted by Mr V

Although i didn't know that, the answer (or your insinuation) was obvious.

It was ...

[Mr V]

I'n sure there will be no point having a Seb V Mark part 4 thread, but Mark reckon's he'll be stronger in 2012

He also agrees that any chance of a WDC has passed him by.

[jedrinck]

Originally Posted by Mr V

I'n sure there will be no point having a Seb V Mark part 4 thread, but Mark reckon's he'll be stronger in 2012

He also agrees that any chance of a WDC has passed him by.

Good to know he knows basic arithmetics.

[wnut]

Originally Posted by Mr V

I'n sure there will be no point having a Seb V Mark part 4 thread, but Mark reckon's he'll be stronger in 2012

He also agrees that any chance of a WDC has passed him by.

His biggest problem with politics appear to be the ones that go on in his own head.
Why would he be better in 2012?

Vettel is quicker because he does everything better than Webber, full stop. Nothing the team can do about it.

[OZ_HCR32]

Go read the original story and not what is being posted on other websites...

Q: Do you think it was your last shot at the World Championship?

A: Yes of course, I do think that last year was my last chance at being World Champion. But I've pushed very very hard and done many many things that other people could not have achieved so I'm very proud of what I did.

Now swap last with best and there is a story going around that the question was asked using the word "best" and went to print using "last"

I just want Webber to hold position off the line....seriously. Surely they would be doing straight line aero testing if it was purely a driver thing and getting loads of practice in. Can it be a combo of technical and hackness?

[Mr V]

Originally Posted by OZ_HCR32

Go read the original story and not what is being posted on other websites...

Q: Do you think it was your last shot at the World Championship?

A: Yes of course, I do think that last year was my last chance at being World Champion. But I've pushed very very hard and done many many things that other people could not have achieved so I'm very proud of what I did.

Now swap last with best and there is a story going around that the question was asked using the word "best" and went to print using "last"

I just want Webber to hold position off the line....seriously. Surely they would be doing straight line aero testing if it was purely a driver thing and getting loads of practice in. Can it be a combo of technical and hackness?

You can spin it all you like, but it's obvious to the outside world (with maybe the exception of Australia ) what he is saying.

Mark Webber

"I think it's difficult for the team to give 100% to both drivers as we are both demanding. Looking at the start we actually got, it's clear where the support needs to go and I respect that in some way".

[wnut]

I really think that the RBR drivers are treated absolutely equally, and I think that they have sufficient resources to do so.


Originally Posted by OZ_HCR32
"I just want Webber to hold position off the line....seriously. Surely they would be doing straight line aero testing if it was purely a driver thing and getting loads of practice in."

Couldn't agree more, I find his performance off the start weird.
There are not many rubbish starts across the grid these days, yet Webber seems to be rubbish every race! Unbelievable!

This is just another reason they need to bring back testing!
It is poor that elite atheletes drivers are not allowed to practice, artificial beyond reason!

[Mr V]

I'm sure i read somewhere that Mark blamed his poor starts on the Pirelli tres.

[stripedcat]

Sadly, whilst Mark will get good equipment(i.e. a Newey designed car) next year and might win a few races, he will just be making up the numbers. Next to Vettel he will be a 'number two driver'. Vettel has upped his game so much. Plus he is younger. A shame as Webber is a decent guy and I admired his Aussie spirit for fighting for the title in 2010(his races at Silverstone, Monaco and Hungary were amasing). That was realistically his chance of a WDC.

[OZ_HCR32]

Originally Posted by Mr V

You can spin it all you like, but it's obvious to the outside world (with maybe the exception of Australia ) what he is saying.

LOL..Hey I think I am a good sport and happy to take a ribbing. BUT, I am not trying to spin anything, just pointing out that the interview MAY be wide of base through an innocent or malicious mis-quote.

Webber himself doesn't seem too stressed, himself having said in the last few hours

"I'm hearing about a misquote about my plans to fight for the title next year, always possible to miss/add a few words for a good story.."

[Mr V]

Originally Posted by OZ_HCR32

LOL..Hey I think I am a good sport and happy to take a ribbing. BUT, I am not trying to spin anything,

My apologies if i misunderstood you. I think that Mark is a down to earth, realistic fella, i think you get what you read so to speak. I'm sure he feels that, right now, his team mate is on a different planet and that there is no way that he can touch him. That isn't likely to change. Seb is going from strength to strength, Mark is in the twilight of his career, and in all likelihood, facing his last season in the sport, so what he's saying is true. 2010 was his last realistic chance of a WDC and 2012 isn't likely to be any different.

[321Go]

In the same equipment, and no Helmut Marko in sight, Webber beats Vettel.

http://www.gpupdate.net/en/f1-news/2...t-on-top-gear/

[Bononi]

Originally Posted by 321Go

In the same equipment, and no Helmut Marko in sight, Webber beats Vettel.

http://www.gpupdate.net/en/f1-news/2...t-on-top-gear/

Wow.

[Marbot]

Interestingly, Kimi was one second faster than Webber in the same "very wet" conditions. Not only that, Kimi also seemed more interested in the parked helicopters than setting a fast time. Kimi4thewin!

[Mr V]

Originally Posted by 321Go

In the same equipment, and no Helmut Marko in sight, Webber beats Vettel.

http://www.gpupdate.net/en/f1-news/2...t-on-top-gear/

Definitive proof if ever we needed it.