Mini Challenge Crash at QLD Raceway - Spectator Safety

[smarm]

Originally Posted by peckstar

Trying to remember the last time a car rolled into the crowd at a street course. even though the crowd are often closer to the action.

Surely there is a reason for this

The mini basically accelerated once it was on it's roof, caught the gravel trap, then had a largish run off area to continue its flight, before going over a tyre wall and a fence whose primary purpose was to hold back the spectators.

Street circuits generally don't have the run off area, or the change in surface to cause the car to roll, and for it to get enough distance to get the vertical attitude AND have the horizontal speed. The

If a car rolls on a street circuit, then generally they'll have hit a hard, movable wall with a 90 degree face on it, which absorbs a huge amount of the energy, really minimising the forces that then continue to allow the car to keep rolling.

[STEALTHY]

Originally Posted by smarm

The mini basically accelerated once it was on it's roof, caught the gravel trap, then had a largish run off area to continue its flight, before going over a tyre wall and a fence whose primary purpose was to hold back the spectators.

WAT?

[SamDale]

I know this is pedantic, but it is physically impossible for the car to accelerate once it is off it's driving wheels. The amount of deceleration may be less sliding along on the roof, but unless it was on a significant downslope or there is some accelerative force (like the driving wheels), it cannot accelerate.

[MickAU]

There are a couple of things to look at, the fencing is too low at QR - and the same at the drag racing facility too.

Yeah, it was a freak accident, but circuit owners have to minimise the risk to spectators at all costs. The accident does give TC and CAMS fodder to not go back there.

[STEALTHY]

Originally Posted by MickAU

The accident does give TC and CAMS fodder to not go back there.

Thats the only good thing to come out of this crash.

[smarm]

Originally Posted by SamDale

I know this is pedantic, but it is physically impossible for the car to accelerate once it is off it's driving wheels. The amount of deceleration may be less sliding along on the roof, but unless it was on a significant downslope or there is some accelerative force (like the driving wheels), it cannot accelerate.

Sorry, hold it's velocity... Geez!

In other news, sorry to hear about the death of another rider at Broadford this morning....

[jd yort]

Everyone has been talking about the track but no one about the Mini's themselves. Has not anyone else noticed how easily these cars are spun around when tapped from the rear?

It seems to me they they become very very unstable when even slightly nudged. It may be the high centre of gravity combined with each of the 4 wheels in the furthest corners and then the FWD.

There has been some big big accidents like yesterday with a tap from behind. eg Townsville.

[peckstar]

was impressed by the speed of the red flag.

is it an automatic rule that car in the crowd equals red flag

[HSVDT]

Yesterday it was Kain Magro whose mini barrel rolled and flipped itself into the crowd which saw a 59yr old, a 60yr old and the driver of the mini taken to hospital all with minor lacerations. Today a female mini race driver had a severe crash into a tyre barrier and was taken to hospital with some injuries.

Surely VESA and CAMS now have enough evidence NOT to return to this circuit, the CEO Mr John Tetley believes that his circuit is safe and he intends on resurfacing the track etc at the later end of the year. Will Mr John Tetley stick to his word or give VESA the run around just like the Barbagallo WASCC did.

[Sultan]

Originally Posted by HSVDT

Surely VESA and CAMS now have enough evidence NOT to return to this circuit, the CEO Mr John Tetley believes that his circuit is safe and he intends on resurfacing the track etc at the later end of the year. Will Mr John Tetley stick to his word or give VESA the run around just like the Barbagallo WASCC did.

It's JT we're talking about - he's already been playing that tune for a few years now. The simple fact though is, V8's seem to need QR more than QR needs the V8's. (Purely because its a tesing circuit).

I personally asked JT about resurfacing & frankly, QR is booked out almost every weekend of the year without the need for desperate resurfacing, so why would he?

Whilst I agree with him in a business sense, it's condition (along with its boring layout) has certainly put me off from wanting to turn a wheel there - haven't done so for over 12 months. When the track has a good surface, at least you can race wheel to wheel without bouncing all over the place!

Morgan Pk should be milking this!

BTW, is there any in car footage from either car? Would be VERY curious to see who squeezed who...

[scoupe]

Even Ipswich City Council were on the news compaining about it tonight, and it was the Ipswich City Council that named it...

[Rick]

the luckiest part of the whole exercise - and I was half way down the back straight wandering around the track towards it! - was the lousy crowd that was there. A few years ago and the car would have landed on a dozen spectators rather than a basically empty patch of grass. Might have even made the grandstand they use to put down there! (from memory).

[cnoyes]

Originally Posted by SamDale

I know this is pedantic, but it is physically impossible for the car to accelerate once it is off it's driving wheels. The amount of deceleration may be less sliding along on the roof, but unless it was on a significant downslope or there is some accelerative force (like the driving wheels), it cannot accelerate.

Sorry Sam, but I have to disagree here - although it has been a while since I studied physics, the principle surrounds friction and rolling resistance (or lack thereof). While the rubber compound may have a low rolling resistance, rubber by nature is high friction, metal on the other hand is low friction. It is a similar theory to a car that steps off track onto wet grass gaining speed (which if I recall correctly was found to be a major contributing factor in Stuart McColl's crash). Metal has a lower friction value than rubber which makes it perfectly possible for a car to actually gain speed whilst sliding on it's roof.

[racer69]

Would a paved run-off, rather than a sandtrap, be an answer here, as opposed to solely blaming the height of the fencing?

I don't recall much track changes at Suttons Corner at Oran Park back in the mid-90s when the trucks of Ron Salter & Rodney Crick almost ended up in the spectator area.

[glenn_a]

Could it be a problem with the mini's? We have seen two serious accidents in two days. Over the years we have also seen Justin Hemes roll one at Oran Park (2008?) Then we saw Chris Alajajian roll his at Sandown (2009?).

[SamDale]

Originally Posted by cnoyes

Metal has a lower friction value than rubber which makes it perfectly possible for a car to actually gain speed whilst sliding on it's roof.

Unless there is a force accelerating the car, it cannot be accelerating. Reducing the friction will reduce the amount of deceleration, but without a force applied (ie; the driving of the wheels) it can't cause acceleration.

For the car to gain speed in this case, there would need to be a force applied in the direction of travel that was greater than the kinetic friction (acting against the direction of travel). There is no force in the direction of travel, so the car cannot physically gain speed, only lose it (albeit at a reduced rate).

[D.R.T.]

Originally Posted by HSVDT

I hope VESA don't return to this venue, can you imagine had that been an actual V8 at over 200km that barrel rolled over the fence and as for Mr Tetley his safety record just got shot down.

I think that is a ridiculous thing to say.

The track has a license (2 in fact) after being inspected and approved for racing so there is no issue there with the circuit safety. The same type of fencing as has been already stated can be found all around the country.

This 'freak' & unforseeable accident is something that Queensland Raceway & Australian motorsport (CAMS & AASA included) can learn from. So lets not be hasty and make such suggestions that V8SA should not return.

Lets hope that they do.

[PVDA]

Originally Posted by cnoyes

It is a similar theory to a car that steps off track onto wet grass gaining speed (which if I recall correctly was found to be a major contributing factor in Stuart McColl's crash).

More a lack of brakes evidenced by the complete lack of skid marks on the grass.........

Short of someone or something pushing it faster the rate of decelaration might vary but it certainly wont increase it's kilometre per hour speed just by sliding on grass,it might just slow down a bit slower.

[Chatters]

Originally Posted by smarm

The mini basically accelerated once it was on it's roof, caught the gravel trap, then had a largish run off area to continue its flight, before going over a tyre wall and a fence whose primary purpose was to hold back the spectators.

Originally Posted by STEALTHY

WAT?

I think it only looks that way because the other Mini brakes at the same time the rolling one flipped over. Hence, it continued at the same speed, upside down, whilst the other Mini (on its wheels) slowed slowed down.

[peckstar]

Im thinking we should discuss the topic instead of a physics lesson. any reasonable points made or discussed are totally lost in the off-topic conversation

thank goodness for catch fences

[1200Datto27]

Simple solution, ban the mini's...

[Rachel Richards]

Originally Posted by 1200Datto27

Simple solution, ban the mini's...

Datto, not quite the solution, but lets have a closer look at who is driving them;
Hence the point I made earlier about the root cause, but clearly the wannabe astro-physicists on this forum would rather debate the differences in the co-efficient of friction of grass, rubber, metal, and asphalt

[NewsStalker]

And whatever they do to change the track, a car can still make it over in freak circumstances. So its pointless.....the only way you can make it 100% safe for the fans is to have 100 feet high concrete all the way around the track. That'll make for great spectator base.....

Wrong - the only way you can make 100% safe is to not hold ANY form of motor sport at the venue.

There are a couple of things to look at, the fencing is too low at QR - and the same at the drag racing facility too.

Also the same height as fencing at all permanent race tracks in Australia - Winton, Wakefield, Eastern Creek, Sandown, Phillip Island, Symmons, Barbagallo, Hidden Valley, Calder - daresay Morgan Park as well.

is it an automatic rule that car in the crowd equals red flag

Think you will find it is simply that someone other than a V8 Race Director was in charge of the track at the time (read CofC and most likely more competent).

Surely VESA and CAMS now have enough evidence NOT to return to this circuit,

So why wasn't Winton banned when an errant wheel of a V8 went into the crowd killing a young girl some years ago?

And, although it has now gone, why wasn't Amaroo Park immediately banned when an open wheeler (F/Brabham??) went into the crowd in the same way the Mini did?

Datto, not quite the solution, but lets have a closer look at who is driving them;

And while you are at it, look at the qualifications for every driver in every category then. At least this way there will be no one around to graduate to ANY category!

[Rachel Richards]

Originally Posted by NewsStalker

And while you are at it, look at the qualifications for every driver in every category then. At least this way there will be no one around to graduate to ANY category!

Stephen, i will respond to this point, as it was mine. (BTW, some of your othere were very good)

Doing some quick research on Natsoft (Racetime seems to stop at 2007.....) Mini's lap, (at most tracks) slightly slower than FFord, quite close to than V8 Utes, and around the same time as Biante Touring Car Masters cars.

The intent of my original post was that Mini's tended to attract less experienced racers (the Uber star car comes to mind) who quite possibly are quick drivers.
Please note, there is a massive difference between a quick driver, and an experienced racer.
BTW I'm generally talking about the bottom 50 % of the field here.

In saying all that, i'd suggest that a number of these "buy a drive" tourists, lack race craft, and when they are "on show" as a support to The Greatest Show on Earth, maybe, just maybe, they try too hard ?

How many of these tourists, have gained experience & race craft in club & state level events?

Mini's are not really a class that people graduate to, they bring along dollars, and buy a drive, and again, i say that with the greatest of respect to any past or previous Mini competitor, but that is simply my opinion.

Oh, and as to looking at qualification of drivers in general, well there are a lot of replies over in the yellow flag thread that pertain to a lack of driving ability (to follow rules), and dont even get me started on CAMS licences these days. (did someone mention Weet-bix boxes)

I reckon you & I might have even been at a number good old fashioned driver evaluation's together at Calder more than 15 years ago.
(back when people who were not suitable were actually refused a GC licence)

[NewsStalker]

Originally Posted by Rachel Richards

Stephen, i will respond to this point, as it was mine. (BTW, some of your othere were very good)

I'll pass thos on to hm but he won't know what you are on about Dad's last involvement in motor sport wasnearly 7-8 years ago...

As to the other comments - Mini's are not the only category 'buy a drive' happens. Dare I suggest Ute's as well?