Home Mobile Forum News Cookbook FaceBook Us T-Shirts etc.: Europe/Worldwide. eBay Motorsport Links Advertising Live Chat  
Site Partners: SpotterGuides  
Related Sites: Classic Cars Monthly Your Link Here  

Go Back   TenTenths Motorsport Forum > Historic Racing & Motorsport History > Historic Racing Today


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 19 Jan 2018, 08:51 (Ref:3793756)   #1
Simon Hadfield
Racer
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 472
Simon Hadfield should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridSimon Hadfield should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Fire extinguisher changes

In the last few days it has become apparent that the Fire Extinguisher regulations have shuffled sideways a tad. It appears that the MSA regulations have been different to those of the FIA and starting this January the regulations are merging.
The practical issue is that the FIA bottles appear to be substantially larger for the "standard, propellant and extinguishant" type that I suspect most of us use.
So, several points;
Did the MSA tell us this was coming? Was it in one of the bulletins we are emailed and I missed it?
Have the MSA cars had more fires than other ASNs cars?
Have those fires been more serious?
Has anyone actually tried to understand the FIA Appendix J section for fire extinguishers? Having not been part of Bletchley Park I struggle to make sense of it, why cannot someone put in simple language "a Formula Ford needs this, and three box saloon needs this, an open two seater sports car needs this....instead of the reams and reams of obscure dimensions. Does anyone here know the internal volume of their car? Really?
Whatever, was anyone from Historic racing consulted about this? The way things are going we will need to tow a trailer behind our race cars with the fire extinguisher on it...
We are asked to put the fire extinguisher within the main structure of the chassis - easy in a Mustang, not so easy in a 1971 Formula Ford, especially if you intend to sit in it to drive it too.
Nationally, as I understand it the "MSA" extinguishers now in use will be re-filled and accepted until 2020 (I think, if I understand the information now available) but will not be acceptable for International use as of now.
If I have this wrong I would gladly be corrected. I would also point out that this is not specifically an Historic issue, but has come from the offices of real racing, we just have to make the best of it.
Also I do realise that separate extinguishant and propellant systems are available, that they are much smaller, but the prices make your eyes bleed.

Last edited by Simon Hadfield; 19 Jan 2018 at 09:00.
Simon Hadfield is offline  
Quote
Old 19 Jan 2018, 09:17 (Ref:3793763)   #2
The Fat Clerk
Veteran
 
The Fat Clerk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
England
Mallory Park
Posts: 2,937
The Fat Clerk should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Simon,

The long way is to go the MSA website:

News & Publications

Requlations

To provide advance warning for competitors and officials, new rules approved by the MSC for future implementation are published here

October 2017

Or the easy way is:

https://www.msauk.org/assets/rulechangesoctober2017.pdf

There also more changes:

https://www.msauk.org/assets/clarifi...anuary2018.pdf
The Fat Clerk is offline  
__________________
Comments made are personal and dont reflect any club or MSA policy or view
Remember: Sussex born and Sussex bred, strong in the arm and thick in the head.
Quote
Old 19 Jan 2018, 10:15 (Ref:3793773)   #3
Simon Hadfield
Racer
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 472
Simon Hadfield should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridSimon Hadfield should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Thank you for that - clear and obvious. So its the last sentence of the last "reason" box in the October opus - "FIA extinguishers are now comparable in cost and size...." that is evidently incorrect. That and the almost hidden part about manufacturers not making anymore non-FIA kit. I think that I had skipped the rest as it talked of 2019 and implementation for 2022.
Just shows that one should read the small print, and all of it!
Doesn't help fit a Zeppelin in my Formula Ford though....
What I think is correct however is that the International organisers will no longer accept an MSA only system - as of now it must be fully FIA homologated - some British competitors were actually notified of this at the PA Paul Ricard meeting at the end of last year.

Last edited by Simon Hadfield; 19 Jan 2018 at 10:37.
Simon Hadfield is offline  
Quote
Old 19 Jan 2018, 11:22 (Ref:3793788)   #4
PeterMorley
Veteran
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
United Kingdom
Belgium
Posts: 734
PeterMorley should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridPeterMorley should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
Quote:
Originally Posted by Simon Hadfield View Post
Have the MSA cars had more fires than other ASNs cars?
Have those fires been more serious?
Have there been many fires in historic racing cars?
Doing a demonstration at Goodwood where racing overalls weren't required the marshal said that he felt full protection with no exposed skin was essential, particularly in a single seater - e.g. disagreed with wearing period dress.
That made me wonder how many situations there have been where such overalls have made a difference in historics?
Following on from that you have to wonder if it is really essential to have the very latest standard of equipment.

As for fire extinguishers, the only person I know who's actually used the onboard one in an emergency said that it was totally ineffective, didn't put the fire out and it needed the Marshal's to aim their extinguishers in the right area!
PeterMorley is offline  
__________________
"The problem with internet quotes is that you can't always depend on their accuracy" - Abraham Lincoln, 1864
Quote
Old 19 Jan 2018, 11:32 (Ref:3793791)   #5
zefarelly
Veteran
 
zefarelly's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
England
good old Sussex by the sea
Posts: 8,775
zefarelly should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridzefarelly should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridzefarelly should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
I only know of one person using their extinguisher whilst racing, engine blew, oil on exhaust, FE was about as effective as an Asthmatic ant trying to blow out a candle.

Driver stopped and a Marshall kindly put the fire out, with his 'big one' negligible damage to car.

I've personally done the cheapest thing possible to pass scrutineering as if there's a real fire I know it'll do F*** all other than make a mess.
zefarelly is offline  
__________________
Joe Allenby-Byrne
trading as Zefarelly since 1985
Quote
Old 19 Jan 2018, 13:15 (Ref:3793818)   #6
Mike Bell
Race Official
Veteran
 
Mike Bell's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
England
Attleborough- 5 minutes from Snet!
Posts: 9,992
Mike Bell has a real shot at the podium!Mike Bell has a real shot at the podium!Mike Bell has a real shot at the podium!Mike Bell has a real shot at the podium!Mike Bell has a real shot at the podium!
Although I was aware of the changes, most useful info was from the 2018 DT catalogue.

What seems to be evident is that sensible priced and smaller 'single seater' extinguishers won't be made any more. My 2.25 litre fitted (in FF2000) at the moment is listed (in 2017) at £231.45, and to get an FIA compliant bottle from the same manufacturer that will directly replace it now, the cost will be £425.00....... Another make does offer a bottle that could possibly fit, although longer and smaller dia, at £215.83. Seems to get a small system to fit a single seater you now have to have either a very expensive bottle, very expensive firing mech or very expensive extinguishant! Interestingly most extinguishers in the catalogue now suggest for 'GT / closed car / rally / saloon use', and it's difficult to spot anything for open cockpit / single seater use.....

One other point from the regulation changes is that bottles will have to be fitted to brackets with 'anti torpedo' tabs. (To stop the bottle sliding along or through the brackets.) If you have a DT or other catalogue, you will see what they look like. Think I could retro fit to an existing bracket, as long as that is allowed!
Mike Bell is offline  
__________________
Logic will get you from A to B. Imagination will take you everywhere. (Einstein)
Quote
Old 19 Jan 2018, 19:11 (Ref:3793855)   #7
Gerard C
Veteran
 
Join Date: May 2013
France
Paris area
Posts: 779
Gerard C should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
While we are here, can someone try to explain me why it is safe to remove the safety pin from a manual FE before driving, please? If feel this rule is stupid but accept to be corrected with the right argument.
Gerard C is offline  
__________________
"I feel so miserable without you; it's almost like having you here." Stephen Bishop.
Quote
Old 19 Jan 2018, 19:44 (Ref:3793858)   #8
midgetman
Veteran
 
midgetman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
England
Rural Wiltshire
Posts: 4,181
midgetman has a real shot at the championship!midgetman has a real shot at the championship!midgetman has a real shot at the championship!midgetman has a real shot at the championship!midgetman has a real shot at the championship!midgetman has a real shot at the championship!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gerard C View Post
While we are here, can someone try to explain me why it is safe to remove the safety pin from a manual FE before driving, please? If feel this rule is stupid but accept to be corrected with the right argument.
Gerard how else would it work? If you were unconscious you would not be able to pull the pin before the marshals pull the outside T bar.

Sent from my EVA-L09 using Tapatalk
midgetman is offline  
__________________
Midgetman - known as Max Tyler to the world. MaxAttaq!
Quote
Old 19 Jan 2018, 21:50 (Ref:3793874)   #9
grantp
Subscriber
Veteran
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 4,275
grantp should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridgrantp should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
Also, as they seem to be useless anyway, if it goes off it probably won't be a problem ...

I seems to remember some reports of extinguishers going off mid race and only costing the driver a few seconds ....
grantp is offline  
Quote
Old 19 Jan 2018, 22:28 (Ref:3793880)   #10
GORDON STREETER
Veteran
 
GORDON STREETER's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Spain
Kent+Mojacar Spain, but not always ?
Posts: 7,408
GORDON STREETER is going for a new lap record!GORDON STREETER is going for a new lap record!GORDON STREETER is going for a new lap record!GORDON STREETER is going for a new lap record!GORDON STREETER is going for a new lap record!GORDON STREETER is going for a new lap record!
This is one more nail in the coffin, I decided to pack in all in a few years ago when the cost even in club racing starting to spiral out of control. Every year it was either a new seat/ extinguisher /seat belts/overalls/entry fees/crash helmet, the list goes on and that's without a race car !!!! I had a fire in my race car engine compartment when in the workshop and the fitted extinguisher was completely ineffective and I might just have well peed on it !! As luck would have it the old brilliant Halon one was still kicking about that was fitted in it originally, that saved the day!
GORDON STREETER is offline  
__________________
Balls of steel (knob of butter) They're Asking For Larkins. ( Proper beer) not you're Eurofizz crap. Hace más calor en España. Me han conocido a hablar un montón cojones! Send any cheques and cash to PO box 1 Lagos Nigeria Africa !
Quote
Old 20 Jan 2018, 05:07 (Ref:3793911)   #11
Gerard C
Veteran
 
Join Date: May 2013
France
Paris area
Posts: 779
Gerard C should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Quote:
Originally Posted by midgetman View Post
Gerard how else would it work? If you were unconscious you would not be able to pull the pin before the marshals pull the outside T bar.
I think you're right but in the case of a manual hand held device - which is mandatory as a minimum and what I use - I always wonder if the FE could start working alone while driving. It never happened though.
Gerard C is offline  
__________________
"I feel so miserable without you; it's almost like having you here." Stephen Bishop.
Quote
Old 20 Jan 2018, 07:17 (Ref:3793927)   #12
midgetman
Veteran
 
midgetman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
England
Rural Wiltshire
Posts: 4,181
midgetman has a real shot at the championship!midgetman has a real shot at the championship!midgetman has a real shot at the championship!midgetman has a real shot at the championship!midgetman has a real shot at the championship!midgetman has a real shot at the championship!
....which kind of proves it couldn't!

Sent from my EVA-L09 using Tapatalk
midgetman is offline  
__________________
Midgetman - known as Max Tyler to the world. MaxAttaq!
Quote
Old 20 Jan 2018, 07:37 (Ref:3793929)   #13
Mike Bell
Race Official
Veteran
 
Mike Bell's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
England
Attleborough- 5 minutes from Snet!
Posts: 9,992
Mike Bell has a real shot at the podium!Mike Bell has a real shot at the podium!Mike Bell has a real shot at the podium!Mike Bell has a real shot at the podium!Mike Bell has a real shot at the podium!
Anything ‘could’ go off accidentally, but IMO a mechanically fired extinguisher is less likely! If anyone has ever tried to set off a hand held they will know how hard you have to hit the fire button for it to work..... Biggest problem will be the pull cable seizing up with water ingress, and I'm sure many of us have had that at scrutineering! The fix is to make sure to only use stainless cables, and put some lube down occasionally....
Mike Bell is offline  
__________________
Logic will get you from A to B. Imagination will take you everywhere. (Einstein)
Quote
Old 20 Jan 2018, 09:08 (Ref:3793945)   #14
Gerard C
Veteran
 
Join Date: May 2013
France
Paris area
Posts: 779
Gerard C should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Fine, you both Midget and Mike convinced me. Thanks.
Gerard C is offline  
__________________
"I feel so miserable without you; it's almost like having you here." Stephen Bishop.
Quote
Reply

Bookmarks




Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Cold Fire | The Ultimate Fire Extinguisher???? TWRv12 Racing Technology 8 17 Dec 2008 17:29
Fire extinguisher pull graeme Racers Forum 25 11 Apr 2004 10:50
Fire extinguisher RMR Racers Forum 4 29 Apr 2003 16:08
fire fire fire Tiptop Racers Forum 7 15 Apr 2003 10:01


Powered by vBadvanced CMPS v3.2.3

All times are GMT. The time now is 23:30.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Original Website Copyright © 1998-2003 Craig Antil. All Rights Reserved.
Ten-Tenths Motorsport Forums Copyright © 2004-2016 Royalridge Computing. All Rights Reserved.