Silverstone Festival 09 (reopened) + Its Organisers

[terence]

When able,you have my word it will be made public Simon,at the moment I dont think there will be any disapointments though.

[john ruston]

Someone has to be disappointed and on the Abbey question .It was a wrong decision to abandon the Historic circuit and still is.MSA and BRDC had many,many complaints (not two)and on reflection the discussions with Bernie probably overshadowed the Abbey situation.Now that they have less to think about the BRDC should revisit the problem as Historics are one of the only classes of race people that want to visit their patch perhaps its worth them listening.Downside is that with Ron organising all the old F1 race series they may want to use chicane at Abbey ,what Masters wants Masters gets..Note in the old programme the cars were kept at the circuit for two days by splitting races.Most people know whats happening to the Classic but will let Tel make the official announcement.

[delta]

I was told it was the MSA that put the mockers on the Historic Abbey. Nothing to do with FJ.

[terence]

Originally Posted by john ruston

Someone has to be disappointed and on the Abbey question .It was a wrong decision to abandon the Historic circuit and still is.MSA and BRDC had many,many complaints (not two)and on reflection the discussions with Bernie probably overshadowed the Abbey situation.Now that they have less to think about the BRDC should revisit the problem as Historics are one of the only classes of race people that want to visit their patch perhaps its worth them listening.Downside is that with Ron organising all the old F1 race series they may want to use chicane at Abbey ,what Masters wants Masters gets..Note in the old programme the cars were kept at the circuit for two days by splitting races.Most people know whats happening to the Classic but will let Tel make the official announcement.

If thats the case John,go ahead and make it yourself .
Also,if we go back in time,I belive there was a certain poster on here complaining about how close the Abbey wall was to the circuit,"especially in the wet,its dangerous for the single seater drivers",perhaps not word perfect but on the same lines.Anyway,over to someone who cares.

[fasted]

This whole thread is gradually highlighting the problems with motor sport as a whole. Competitors seem to have less and less influence on those running events. Events used to be organised by clubs. Club members could put pressure on club commitees. Clubs were part of Regional Associations. Club reprentatives could put pressure on regional representatives who in turn had a direct line to the MSA. Now we seem to have clubs which don`t appear to be clubs as I understand them. Is it the case that commercial organisations are masquerading as "Clubs" for their own purposes or is it the case that genuine clubs are having their aims and objectives deflected by the apparent need to make money out of motorsport. Does every "Club" chairman really see themselves as another Bernie?

[johngee]

Originally Posted by fasted

This whole thread is gradually highlighting the problems with motor sport as a whole. Competitors seem to have less and less influence on those running events. Events used to be organised by clubs. Club members could put pressure on club commitees. Clubs were part of Regional Associations. Club reprentatives could put pressure on regional representatives who in turn had a direct line to the MSA. Now we seem to have clubs which don`t appear to be clubs as I understand them. Is it the case that commercial organisations are masquerading as "Clubs" for their own purposes or is it the case that genuine clubs are having their aims and objectives deflected by the apparent need to make money out of motorsport. Does every "Club" chairman really see themselves as another Bernie?

Fair comment but the major change in the past 10/15 years has been the huge increases in the cost of organising race meetings, the most significant being circuit hire and it's forced many of the smaller clubs to just cease to be involved as race meeting organisers as they can no longer afford to take the commercial risk. Track hire is a fixed cost of x thousand pounds a day, regardless of the numbers of entries so that race meeting financials are nearly always problematic and it's now only the bigger clubs/organisations that can afford to take the risks.......which is not what clubs were set up for or equipped to manage. Far from thinking as themselves as another Bernie, most club chairman are trying to stop themselves and their clubs becoming another Woolworths - they're not deflected by the 'apparent need to make money' but more to avoid going into liquidation!

[simon drabble]

which is why clubs/organizations should work together not against each other and to that end make sure that their calenders do not clash. Masters and HSCC should work together to look at doing more meetings like Castle Combe last year. Offering value for the punter will help grid sizes which will benefit all.

[delta]

Problem with the Classic is that there are clubs like HSCC and Masters that will do a great job with the racing its getting someone to organise all the outfield events.

[fasted]

So who is best placed to run major events and what is our attitude as entrants? Personally, and totally illogically, entering an event as a member of the organising club I would tend to be more tolerant of organisational shortcomings and adopt the "Lets all muck in" attitude. However,as an entrant in an event run by a commercial organisation I immediately become a "Paying Customer". Consequently my demands as to the standard of organisation and value for money are transformed. It seems to me that events such as the Silverstone Classic are trying to involve the professional and the amatuer within the same event organisation. Surely if we accept from earlier posts that the whole scene is far to risky for the average club then let the commercial organisers take over. Let us see which organisations come forward. I am certain any of those previously mentioned in this thread, provided they are unhindered, would put on a terrific event, and should it be the case that they feel unwilling or unable, the BRDC could always ask M. Patrick Peter.

[rogerwills]

Originally Posted by fasted

Personally, and totally illogically, entering an event as a member of the organising club I would tend to be more tolerant of organisational shortcomings and adopt the "Lets all muck in" attitude. However,as an entrant in an event run by a commercial organisation I immediately become a "Paying Customer".

You are a paying customer with every organiser I know of except Goodwood. I just don't see the difference.

I also think if you work out your costs per minute of racing, the shorter club events don't seem such great value at all.

I think the issue partly comes down to the tall poppy syndrome. People love to criticise anyone successful. Especially a well run organisation.

[john ruston]

Think your missing Fasteds point Roger.
He is basing his thoughts on the costs of doing a Club Meeting as a contribution towards Club Funds.Vscc is a good example of this type of meeting where everyone are mates and mucks in,The alternative is the commercial operation which have atotally different style.Some of the commercial operations run successful events but the way they do it is is not to everyone's taste,Its not the tall poppy syndrome nor the British whinge,its the normal Brits like a mucking in at the weekend and not the extravagant management style of some of the larger organisations .

[rogerwills]

Maybe John.

As a non-Brit and having observed for a few years, I would say the tall poppy syndrome / British whinge / mucking in at the weekend are all part of the national psyche when it comes to historic racing!

[Peter Mallett]

Originally Posted by rogerwills

.....................I would say the tall poppy syndrome / British whinge / mucking in at the weekend are all part of the national psyche when it comes to historic racing!

Agreed, except I don't think I've seen whingeing anywhere near the sacle of Aussie race fans .

I support clubs and applaud organisations that provide events for me to enter (quite selfishly). I see no need to "muck in" with anyone except I'm always happy to help a fellow competitor and indeed some people have helped me. Its all part of club racing really.

However back to the Classic, as I alluded to in the other thread, if Masters (or similar) were to run it there'd be a good organising body and I would think (hope) they'd call on the likes of the HSCC, CTCRC, MGCC etc. to provide support (and members cars), in order to provide a class event for spectators and drivers.

As far as infield attractions are concerned do we really need a Coys auction or would it be better to use the space for a concours d'elegance that would attract the really great cars? Likewise a decent restaurant and bar and a fun fair with club stands and displays. What about a few classic rally cars strutting their stuff too? Someone else (Simon?) mentioned aircraft but I'm not certain the runway exists for landing/takeoff anymore.

However anything newer than Group C should not, IMO be invited.

[simon drabble]

the infield/outfield at Goodwood is extremely well organized with traders paying a lot for a pitch - why? because of teh quality of punter. If you have an infield with MX5 owners clubs and kit car exhibitions you are not going to attractpunters who spend.... the meeting needs to be sexy and the cars need to be as well. That way you get punters coming for both days and traders doing well and therefore a strong infield.
The GT and saloons would probably be best run by an "independant" judge and I cannot think of a better bod than Julius Thurgood and Carol Spagg. The early days of Cloth Cap, Gentlemen Drivers and Top Hat had great grids and they know where the nice cars are ... dont worry JT is 70's friendly as well...
That way it would not become hostage to you subcribing to a whole season with HSCC or Masters... these are the only grids that would be potentially oversunbscribed. The other grids should be represented by the various clubs. But given Terry etc.. already know what is going to happen I guess I am wasting my breath!

[fasted]

I did not realise we were whinging. It looked like becoming a rather constructive thread, albeit, if Simon is correct, irrelevant as far as the Silverstone Classic is concerned. On reflection I am happy to be a Whining Pommy Barsteward particulaly when one considers the alternatives.

[Peter Mallett]

Originally Posted by simon drabble

the infield/outfield at Goodwood is extremely well organized with traders paying a lot for a pitch - why? because of teh quality of punter. If you have an infield with MX5 owners clubs and kit car exhibitions you are not going to attractpunters who spend.... the meeting needs to be sexy and the cars need to be as well. That way you get punters coming for both days and traders doing well and therefore a strong infield.

Agreed, but let's not exclude enthusiasts on the back of "sexiness".

Originally Posted by simon drabble

The GT and saloons would probably be best run by an "independant" judge and I cannot think of a better bod than Julius Thurgood and Carol Spagg. The early days of Cloth Cap, Gentlemen Drivers and Top Hat had great grids and they know where the nice cars are ... dont worry JT is 70's friendly as well...

Well I still think there are clubs out there who would be more than willing to provide cars and indeed who regularly fill their grids for their own championships.

Originally Posted by simon drabble

That way it would not become hostage to you subcribing to a whole season with HSCC or Masters... these are the only grids that would be potentially oversunbscribed. The other grids should be represented by the various clubs. But given Terry etc.. already know what is going to happen I guess I am wasting my breath!

Not sure about the hostage thing. What about the foreign drivers who don't normally enter UK rounds?

[simon drabble]

It was made clear by one organizer last year that entries to a Swedish round would be looked upon more favourably when they decided the grids for the Classic....

[Peter Mallett]

Hmm,

Doesn't mean there'd be exclusions on that basis just a means of judging who is more likely to turn up and therefore which gtids to propose. And don't forget that particular organiser was one part of the whole. If the situation were different as may be suggested by this thread, then maybe the selection process would be different.

[simon drabble]

Peter - which part of "if you do the Swedish round you will be prioritized for the Classic" is not being held to ransom?! To be fair HSCC were making a similar claim for their GT race saying that regular competitors of the roadsports series had priority. I have to say that I would prefer to watch a Sports 2000 or FF race to Roadsports which I dont think has a place at a premier festival

[fasted]

Originally Posted by Peter Mallett

Hmm,

Doesn't mean there'd be exclusions on that basis just a means of judging who is more likely to turn up and therefore which gtids to propose. And don't forget that particular organiser was one part of the whole. If the situation were different as may be suggested by this thread, then maybe the selection process would be different.

Maybe, but like Simon, I interpreted it as a fairly heavy hint.

[simon drabble]

Originally Posted by rogerwills

I think the issue partly comes down to the tall poppy syndrome. People love to criticise anyone successful. Especially a well run organisation.

If they filed their year end accounts on time we could see how well run they were!!!

[Peter Mallett]

You've got enough spare time to seach CH?

[simon drabble]

no! somebody told tme the other day that they hadn't as they were interested to see if running a series on a commercial basis makes money.

[Peter Mallett]

Back to the previous comment re "held to ransom". I think you are reading too much into that, certainly loyalty must play a part in selection and indeed if you can encourage a core membership to enter then you go some way to safeguarding your product. It is of course entirely possible that some who went to Sweden weren't interested in Silverstone.

Also if the HSCC did something similar I'm not sure there's anything to complain about anyway. Many Clubs prioritise regular entrants for their prestige meetings, it makes sense really.

[simon drabble]

Peter you must get so Masters defensive - my comment was that the risk is that you can get held to ransom by ANY club. Clearly it is only realistically going to be in the saloon and GT where grids become massively oversubscribed.