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18 Aug 2017, 11:58 (Ref:3760146) | #151 | |
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He who dares wins! He who hesitates is lost! |
18 Aug 2017, 12:07 (Ref:3760147) | #152 | |
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18 Aug 2017, 12:08 (Ref:3760148) | #153 | ||
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Tingram , M. Jackson , Austin , Cook etc , they all can't compete with RWD cars |
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18 Aug 2017, 12:19 (Ref:3760152) | #154 | |
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He who dares wins! He who hesitates is lost! |
18 Aug 2017, 13:24 (Ref:3760159) | #155 | ||
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18 Aug 2017, 13:31 (Ref:3760161) | #156 | |||
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and when there were two Honda Civics on another podium at Snetterton, and when a Honda Civic was second to Ingram. It's all a bit Honda friendly at the moment, so they need to have their brakes degraded somehow? Or perhaps, people should accept that RWD cars go well at some circuits, and a few of those are close together in the calendar? Honda fans should be rejoicing in the fact that Shedden is only 12 points behind Sutton after the recent tracks, and that Sutton's teammate has already confirmed that he won't concede race wins for him as it will hurt his pocket. |
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18 Aug 2017, 13:47 (Ref:3760163) | #157 | |
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18 Aug 2017, 14:04 (Ref:3760166) | #158 | |||
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Snetterton R1 - Goff, Neal podium At the RWD tracks, it is possible for a FWD to get a podium without reverse grid. At Brands Indy R1, FWD took top 5 places Donington R1, FWD podium lock-out Thruxton R1, FWD top 5 with Honda podium lock-out Did you call for something to be done about FWD dominance after the first 3 events? |
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18 Aug 2017, 14:15 (Ref:3760169) | #159 | ||
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So, as I wasn't dreaming, I am pretty sure that the uncompetitiveness of the Toyota must be the reason that Ingram pulled away from the rest of the competitors after both of the safety cars in that race, and why Sheddon came second.
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18 Aug 2017, 15:35 (Ref:3760189) | #160 | ||
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It all balances out pretty damn nicely and the racing is competitive each weekend.
What we do have are some people who will moan and whinge and snipe a lot - Neal, Plato, Shedden in particular come to mind - and others like Tingram, Collard, Sutton who will simply get on with doing the best they can. Possibly that is why I respect the latter three examples more. They may not be champions (yet!) but to my mind have a far better, more positive outlook and are better people for it. |
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18 Aug 2017, 15:40 (Ref:3760191) | #161 | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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OK, so all the arguments about FWD vs RWD got my stats bone twitching.
Taking the records from Wikipedia for all NGTC seasons (2011 onward) and making my own assumptions from memory about which cars had FWD and RWD - so there may be one or two errors, which I can quickly correct if necessary, here's the details about 'dominance':
Obviously 2017 is a partial season so far, so I put the comparative data in for all seasons up to and including race 21. Looks to me like a very roughly 60/40 split either way from 2014 onwards. That tends to indicate to me that the rule makers are getting things right. It might *feel* like one drivetrain is dominating. It doesn't look like it, though. |
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18 Aug 2017, 16:31 (Ref:3760202) | #162 | ||
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Turkington 265 RWD Sutton 261 RWD Shedden 253 Collard 248 RWD Ingram 204 Neal 172 if Shedden wasn't there you see total RWD dominance and a big points gap to the FWD cars |
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18 Aug 2017, 16:33 (Ref:3760204) | #163 | ||
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if Tingram could have does this in Race 1 or 2 naturally then fair play but he can't like no other FWD car either |
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18 Aug 2017, 18:12 (Ref:3760224) | #164 | ||
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FWD qualified 1-2-3-4-6-10. Race 1 Finished 1-2-3-4-5-8 Race 2 finished 1-2-3-4-5 Race 3 finished 3-4-5-6 People are going to use the reverse grid race 3 as the example of how RWD cars aren't dominating a grid largely filled with FWD? Am I missing something here? I don't have a problem with the best team building the best car, winning the most races. But BTCC doesn't operate like that - it has a BoP system. And if you operate a BoP style system, and you have a race weekend that is completely one-sided and have cars running in team formation, you arsed it up. This also applies if RWD cars can't get near the front. Although not why Jason Plato can't get near the front whilst Sutton is fighting for the title. Last edited by Akrapovic; 18 Aug 2017 at 18:19. |
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18 Aug 2017, 18:42 (Ref:3760238) | #165 | ||
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Well if Shedden didn't exist then Ingram and Neal would have quite a few more points.
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18 Aug 2017, 18:45 (Ref:3760240) | #166 | |
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18 Aug 2017, 19:09 (Ref:3760245) | #167 | ||
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Every year we seem to go through this it seems, is it really any coincidence that the RWD cars are at the front when you look at who is driving them, they are fast, well sorted cars with top drawer drivers in them, simple as that.
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18 Aug 2017, 19:38 (Ref:3760253) | #168 | |
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And this was what I thought, until everybody ran in team formation at Knockhill. Whatever they did last weekend was completely off, for more reasons than just the RWD FWD balance.
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18 Aug 2017, 20:09 (Ref:3760257) | #169 | ||
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Quote:
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18 Aug 2017, 20:18 (Ref:3760259) | #170 | ||
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Oh good grief, this is the most ridiculous debate ever and getting sooooo old.
Of all of the drivers in RWD cars, 3 are seeing success. 2 are in a highly experienced world class team in WSR, and the combination of those drivers, team and manufacturer have been working together for a decade or more. Their teammate is hardly blowing anyone out of the water. The 3rd guy is in a manufacturer supported, well funded team and is a rising sensation. His teammates have hardly blown anyone else out of the water. Shedden is also in a manufacturer team which he has a long pedigree with. If there was a RWD bias/dominance, there would be 7 RWD cars in the top 7 places. Turkington would have been 5 time champion by now. Oh, that's if Rob Austin hadn't wiped the floor with everyone else in his RWD Audi. The fact is that the most professional set ups are 'dominating' - that means professional in terms of funding, support, team management, experience, driving skill etc. They know what they're doing, do it well and have done for years. I think it's fine to have favourites and to feel aggrieved when they aren't doing so well, but I hate this blame culture that plagues society these days. Some people have worked incredibly hard and are incredibly talented and are reaping the rewards. BOP does its best to even out the playing field and it ebbs and flows as it tries to do that, but it can't balance out how a whole package works and performs. If some people are more successful, the rest have to up their game. Simple. Always has been. That's the reason that Honda have spent some seasons having an 'unfair advantage' and others being 'unfairly disadvantaged' and still end the seasons there or there abouts. Same with Turkington. Can we just stop this now? |
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18 Aug 2017, 20:43 (Ref:3760267) | #171 | ||
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RWD need a slight boost cut specially BMR |
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18 Aug 2017, 21:17 (Ref:3760272) | #172 | |||
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Is it fine that a guy like Jordan (former champion in FWD) can be comfortably behind the likes of Moffatt now that he's in the better RWD? (as happened at thruxton) |
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19 Aug 2017, 11:20 (Ref:3760359) | #173 | |
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Give Cole credit, if he was that bad, he wouldn't have been able to stand the heat of being up the front these last 3 meetings
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19 Aug 2017, 12:52 (Ref:3760380) | #174 | |
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Except we've just come off a run of three circuits that favour rear wheel drive cars. The next three circuits will suit front wheel drive cars: Hondas in particular at Rockingham, MGs and Toyotas at Silverstone.
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19 Aug 2017, 13:49 (Ref:3760389) | #175 | |
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Yes.
Have you stepped back from the screen far enough to look at the bigger picture? I wouldn't ordinarily poke at a sore, but this whole "argument" is completely out of hand. There is *no* dominance over seasons as a whole. |
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