[Race] Monaco GP 2015 Thread

[Mike Harte]

Originally Posted by Lancsbreaker

There's an awful lot of "if"s, guesses and maybes in that (post #121).......

Seems to me that everyone reads the evidence to mean whatever suits their own prejudices.......

Richard, I actually don't give a monkey's about it. Even if all the roles had been reversed, I would have written exactly the same. As for the Hamilton debacle, my only "if" or "guess" is from the point after Hamilton was told to stay out but he must have insisted that he came in. As Mercedes are highly unlikely to release a copy of the recording or a transcript of the conversation between the pit wall and car 44, then I would imagine that all concerned will be now saying that they have "drawn a line under the incident, and we have moved on". But my impression is that Lewis Hamilton is kicking himself for having second-guessed what others were doing, and getting it spectacularly wrong. But I am sure that we have all done that at some point in our lives.

As for the Verstappen incident, one has to assume, as Bert points out, that the Stewards had examined the telemetry before coming to their decision. The decision handed to Toro Rosso states that they have examined all the evidence, and declared that Max was at fault. No "ifs" or "guesses" there, but I did interpret the video somebody else posted as I view it.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by old man

Still not watched the Sky thing, work is getting in the way of things but I do remember Lewis saying this, copied form posts above:

"and I was on the harder tyre, so they said to pit. , "

Seems clear it was "their" decision, a team decision

That's only part of what Lewis said in the post race press conference, so it's going to be out of context.

I posted the entire transcript of the conference here, #108

[MoMedic9019]

Originally Posted by old man

Totally inappropriate comment

No. Completely appropriate. Lewis has turned from complete humble kid just trying to be the best, into an utter diva who has to have everything perfect always. And if he makes a mistake, it was never his problem. A few seasons in a Marussia would do him kindly.

[JamesH]

Originally Posted by MoMedic9019

No. Completely appropriate. Lewis has turned from complete humble kid just trying to be the best, into an utter diva who has to have everything perfect always. And if he makes a mistake, it was never his problem. A few seasons in a Marussia would do him kindly.

Completely wrong. From everything I see on the telly, he has gone the other way. Much better.

[old man]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

That's only part of what Lewis said in the post race press conference, so it's going to be out of context.

I posted the entire transcript of the conference here, #108

Yes, read that, saw it at the time. Nothing in the context that convinces me he overruled the pit wall or took the decision to pit. He says "they said to pit"

I think we draw a line under this discussion, it amounts to "oooops" as Toto said

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by old man

Yes, read that, saw it at the time. Nothing in the context that convinces me he overruled the pit wall or took the decision to pit. He says "they said to pit"

I think we draw a line under this discussion, it amounts to "oooops" as Toto said

Then you will have read this: 'The team said to stay out, I said "these tyres are going to drop in temperature," and what I was assuming was that these guys would be on Options and I was on the harder tyre. So, they said to pit.'

Sounds like he got them to change their minds; oops indeed.

[craig1]

Wonder if anyone looks into whether or not the person/persons who make the strategy calls had a little bet on the outcome of the GP's top three finishing positions.

Seems to me that from time to time one could make a fair bit of coin from the odd manipulation of race results.

[canamman]

Originally Posted by craig1

Wonder if anyone looks into whether or not the person/persons who make the strategy calls had a little bet on the outcome of the GP's top three finishing positions.

Seems to me that from time to time one could make a fair bit of coin from the odd manipulation of race results.

And here come the black helicopters.

[Adam43]

Originally Posted by craig1

Wonder if anyone looks into whether or not the person/persons who make the strategy calls had a little bet on the outcome of the GP's top three finishing positions.

Seems to me that from time to time one could make a fair bit of coin from the odd manipulation of race results.

You should work for the papers.

[steve nielsen]

http://www.gpupdate.net/en/f1-news/3...enalty-unfair/

[Mike Harte]

Originally Posted by steve nielsen

http://www.gpupdate.net/en/f1-news/3...enalty-unfair/

I know that you want to support your boy, but Hakkinen was not present in the Stewards' room when they looked at all the evidence provided by both teams. The Stewards, after viewing the videos and the telementry, came to the conclusion that Verstappen was responsible for an avoidable collision.

Hakkinen says, in his defence of Max, that Romain moved across the track slighltly and took a different line to the previous lap. As far as I am aware, there is a rule stating that you mustn't move more than once in defence of a line and I don't believe that Grosjean did move more than once. I also don't believe that there is any rule that forbids a driver from taking a different line in successive laps.

This is now really flogging a dead horse. The penalty has been given, lessons have been learnt, line drawn in the sand, and it is time to move on, etc, etc.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Lotus say no break testing by Grosjean.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/119187

[Adam43]

Originally Posted by steve nielsen

no, Grosjean just braked early so Max tried to avoid him, that's the only reason he tried to steer around.

you can see in those video's how early Grosjean actualy braked.

and Grosjean is not exactly known for his clean driving is he?

Perhaps there is something odd about following the 2015 Lotus like there was with the 2001 Williams?

No need to be nasty about another driver in an attempt to defend another. Especially as Grosjean does not have a reputation for dirty driving. He, in the past, made some errors of judgement, but it wasn't dirty. Just like Max did in Monaco. He's a newbie the odd misjudgement will happen.

[wnut]

Originally Posted by Adam43

Perhaps there is something odd about following the 2015 Lotus like there was with the 2001 Williams?

No need to be nasty about another driver in an attempt to defend another. Especially as Grosjean does not have a reputation for dirty driving. He, in the past, made some errors of judgement, but it wasn't dirty. Just like Max did in Monaco. He's a newbie the odd misjudgement will happen.

So, Grosjean is driving inconsistently at best, different braking points, different lines, which let's face it would make it extremely difficult for ; unfair on; a following driver, yet Verstappen takes the whole blame and loses his Monaco result, loses 5 grid spots at the next race, and gets 2 penalty points on his licence! For an incident that looks like a brake test to everyone on the video!
All the telemetry shows is possibly a different brake test on successive laps.

Additionally it is well documented how dangerous a one move hack is when left to the last minute.
While Grosjean is free to run different lines on different laps, the quickest line does not contain multiple lines, and it is significant that the Lotus braking point was way ahead of where it should have been during a race, and accompanied by a strange jink that caused the contact.

There are way too many anomalies in this incident to just penalise Verstappen as the driver who caused this accident. It is a racing incident at best, and a brake test at worst.

P.S. Max needs to learn to let go of the steering wheel at the moment of impact!

[JeremySmith]

Originally Posted by Adam43

This brake checking accusation. Is everyone being serious here?

No Adam, if Romain did which I doubt is the case .. Its a racing incident around an impossible track....

[BertMk2]

Originally Posted by wnut

So, Grosjean is driving inconsistently at best, different braking points, different lines, which let's face it would make it extremely difficult for ; unfair on; a following driver,

So Grosjean makes it difficult (unfair?!?) for Max to get past - isn't that what he's supposed to do? Of course he changes his line - he's not just going to leave the door open is he? He adjusts his positioning depending on how close Max is. Normal driving surely? Also the telemetry showed that Grosjean lifted later and braked later on the lap that Max hit him - so again pointing to Grosjean pushing hard to defend his position rather than trying to catch Max out on the brakes.

Originally Posted by wnut

yet Verstappen takes the whole blame and loses his Monaco result, loses 5 grid spots at the next race, and gets 2 penalty points on his licence! For an incident that looks like a brake test to everyone on the video!

Verstappen takes the blame because the evidence available to the stewards points to it being avoidable and being Maxs fault - no blame attached to Grosjean because he didn't do anything wrong (and it doesn't look like a brake test to everyone clearly ).

Originally Posted by wnut

All the telemetry shows is possibly a different brake test on successive laps.

Grosjean has to brake for the corner at some point - the telemetry (that the stewards have seen and we haven't) suggests there was nothing out of place with Grosjeans braking. Are you suggesting Grosjean was going to keep 'brake testing' Max until there was contact? That seems far fetched at best - what would Grosjean hope to gain from doing that?

Originally Posted by wnut

While Grosjean is free to run different lines on different laps, the quickest line does not contain multiple lines, and it is significant that the Lotus braking point was way ahead of where it should have been during a race, and accompanied by a strange jink that caused the contact.

As far as I can see Grosjean takes the normal line and then moves to cover the inside line. The 'strange jink' could well be a reaction to the fact that Max is about to hit him surely?

Originally Posted by wnut

There are way too many anomalies in this incident to just penalise Verstappen as the driver who caused this accident. It is a racing incident at best, and a brake test at worst.

I really don't see any anomalies - the stewards decision was pretty conclusive I thought? Based on the evidence available - film and telemetry it seems pretty clear cut. I do think the penalty may have been a bit harsh - it was a mistake on Maxs part but not worth points on the licence.

[simon21191]

Still can't get my head around what Mercedes were doing with Hamilton

Verstappen unbelievable again despite his crash

fantastic to see McLaren score some points

[Adam43]

Originally Posted by wnut

So, ...

... brake test at worse.

Crikey! Someone is entertaining it.

[Mike Harte]

I think what may have possibly happened, and not for the first time in racing history, is that Max became transfixed following Romain and as a result may have overshot his own lift-off or braking point. It is so easily done, but it would seem as though the Stewards viewed it as an avoidable collision.

[wnut]

Originally Posted by Adam43

Crikey! Someone is entertaining it.

In good company apparently

"Verstappen was looking for a chance to get past and kept a reasonably safe distance, but if the car in front of you changes speed and line, a collision is likely.

"In any case, Verstappen should not have been punished for the incident. I have experienced similar situations, and I think it was the wrong judgment." Mika Hakkinen

There are brake tests and brake tests, if you behave erratically to a closely following car that is trying to overtake, it becomes difficult for the overtaking car to have a "clean run" at you. The result of this baulking are very likely to be what happened here when the overtaking driver is caught out!

To penalise Verstappen further for this crash is just plain daft!

[Razzzor]

I haven't read the report of braking evidence, but if Lotus have shown that Grosjean braked in the same place on previous laps then it's not a brake test. Max had previous laps to see where Grosjean was braking.

If telemetry shows it was no different, then Max lied about Grosjean braking earlier than normal. Perhaps he meant earlier than himself, but that's not Grosjeans fault if Max has better braking.

If Mercedes was following a Manor he needs to figure out where they're braking and make sure he doesn't just slam into the back of them. If he does, then it's 100% his fault. The guy in front can't brake any later if that's the car he has.

If Grosjean's braking is proven to be the same as on previous laps then the argument is over, it's case closed. That was Max's only defence. You can't start claiming Grosjean was moving around like the Kovalainen/Webber crash and many others, because all he did was protect the inside line a little.

Max simply misjudged it because he's still a bit wild/aggressive and hasn't learnt to be more patient yet. Points off his license though ... bit harsh.

Should be a grid penalty at worst, maybe drivers point penalty.

[wnut]

http://www.gpupdate.net/en/f1-news/3...enalty-unfair/


"Grosjean did not drive on the same line or at the same speed as previous laps," double World Champion Häkkinen told Finnish newspaper Ilta-Sanomat.

[Adam43]

We've had that article already.

I took it into account when defending against the dramatic accusation of brake testing.

BTW I don't think Max should be penalised.

[mikuni]

I think the crash is Max's fault. I think that's obvious and those who are arguing have an agenda, are blind, biased or simply trolling.

However, wasn't his crashing penalty enough? A bit of shame from crashing. An extremely heavy impact. Hes lucky to walk away. Is that not enough of a penalty for the kid. If he had have been injured would they still throw a penalty at him?

This is racing, if you do something to intentionally ruin another drivers race you deserve a penalty. If it is a genuine mistake while trying to throw a legitimate move, let it play out for god sake. Grosjean managed to continue, so I think it should just be sorted out on track.

[Adam43]

Originally Posted by JeremySmith

... Its a racing incident around an impossible track....

There we go, one line that not only sums it up, but says everything about it.