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Old 20 Jul 2010, 03:26 (Ref:2729438)   #1176
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Originally Posted by JagtechOhio View Post
One thing that the Lotus/ KV collaboration did promise was a two-car team. When that comes to pass, perhaps the signs of a more comprehensive program will be evident.
I think that whole Lotus KV thing is just some back door B2B action between Lotus/Proton and Cosworth.
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Old 20 Jul 2010, 05:50 (Ref:2729456)   #1177
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The catch there is, both those cars were pretty ****.
Pants? The ARX-02 was designed for US competition was fairly effective, given how far off the diesel pace all petrol cars are it should be no surprise. Also the changes Wirth made to the ARX-01c and how both cars were dominant at Le Mans....Both cars were 1-2 until Highcroft experienced a rare engine problem (4 hours from the finish), not experienced by Strakka or RML.

The F1 car; well all of the completely new teams have struggled and both are at the back, did you expect them to be mid-pack by mid season? I didn't.
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Old 20 Jul 2010, 05:54 (Ref:2729457)   #1178
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In all fairness, the ARX-01 is a pretty good car

Oh, hang on, its an Oreca... damn..
Ain't much of it Courage/Oreca anymore -

http://www.mulsannescorner.com/AcuraARX-01.html
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Old 20 Jul 2010, 07:47 (Ref:2729490)   #1179
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well I guess I agree with all the above..but now the team will be able to afford to buy new cars at half the price..add aero pieces developed by whoever..at a set price..probably the better outfits..unless u want to design them elsewhere.. and mountainstar ..i don't agree..it was always the offy, or cosworth or chevy ..a few chassis..all roadsters in the 50's.yes 70's saw alot of different chassis..but alot of unsafe cars..my point is that why does Indy Car need the big car companies to provide engines..Cosworth..Menard..Illmor and other outfits could build engines
and in Indiana ..the chassis rules is just a start to keep race building in Indianapolis..and keep the teams in business long enough to build up Indy Car back..its still a series with 26 entries and the best racing in USA
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Old 20 Jul 2010, 07:52 (Ref:2729492)   #1180
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oops sorry..Canada too!
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Old 20 Jul 2010, 11:11 (Ref:2729550)   #1181
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The chance presented itself to ask Mr. Bernard some questions on the ICONIC strategy, so I did my best to get some hard answers.

To my surprise, Mike King actually read the questions. IndyCar Radio probably didn't have a screener working last Saturday.

To no one's surprise, most of the details about the ICONIC strategy remain open ones: we are left to see how wise these decisions will prove to be.

Every time I look at the rendering of the 2010 Dallara on track next to the 2012 Dallara, I see that a big mistake was already made. Racing both cars together brings instant variety and insures full participation. The variety of arguments presented by the IRL against this plan may be obvious to you, but looking at the picture says 1,000 words and crunching the numbers shows the loss of millions of dollars.

None of that matters now, it will come down to the capabilities of the team owners and the subsidies from manufacturers who also remain silent.

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/4...radio-activity
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Old 20 Jul 2010, 13:25 (Ref:2729604)   #1182
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It will be interesting to see how the spec car drivers cope with a new chassis. Maybe there will be drivers like Junior in NASCAR who didn't do as well with the COT right away than with the COY. We'll see, I guess.
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Old 20 Jul 2010, 13:32 (Ref:2729608)   #1183
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Very interesting read written by Gordon Kirby that has quotes from reps from the other four manufacturers.

They run the full spectrum...DeltaWing is hacked and Ashmore's design company (not necessarily BAT) will probably do an aero kit.

Lola and Swift yet to decide.

http://www.gordonkirby.com/categorie..._is_no245.html
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Old 20 Jul 2010, 13:33 (Ref:2729609)   #1184
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Posted this in the "Dallara" thread as well...

Very interesting read written by Gordon Kirby that has quotes from reps from the other four manufacturers.

They run the full spectrum...DeltaWing is hacked and Ashmore's design company (not necessarily BAT) will probably do an aero kit.

Lola and Swift yet to decide.

http://www.gordonkirby.com/categorie..._is_no245.html
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Old 20 Jul 2010, 17:32 (Ref:2729716)   #1185
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Very interesting read written by Gordon Kirby that has quotes from reps from the other four manufacturers.

They run the full spectrum...DeltaWing is hacked and Ashmore's design company (not necessarily BAT) will probably do an aero kit.

Lola and Swift yet to decide.

http://www.gordonkirby.com/categorie..._is_no245.html
Lola I think knew they were getting screwed. They definitely are not interested in paying 200K in taxes to the hulmangeorge slush fund to have the opportunity to sell aero kits.

Delta Wing, they make me sick with Dan Partel's comment about social and environmental "responsibility". Well bud I don't drive race cars in the pursuit of environmental responsibility and I don't know any other driver that thinks the same. Motor racing is an escape from all those whiners and motor racing never has been and never will be about being a saintly green man.

I don't like delta wing but if they want to start another open wheel war, I wont stand in their way, go for it.

Ultimately, I don't think you'll see many develop and sell aero kits. With the associated costs I don't see anyone making a profit.

And lets say a couple of companies did. Well I don't think those extra little farkles with different wings and such will really stimulate fan interest. Time has moved on, fans have moved on, and it's a tiny ripple in the sea. Not enough to bring back the old folks and not enough to stimulate interest in the younger crowd either.

You only have to look at last weekends disaster in Toronto. This is a race that used to pull 80000 people on race day and now they could only scrape up around 10000 people with friday and saturday being totally deserted. Couple of little different farkles on the car are not bringing those crowd numbers back.
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Old 20 Jul 2010, 17:44 (Ref:2729723)   #1186
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Relevance to a 4 cylinder is legit, although not for Delta's reason. It's because half of the (sparse) crowd jumps into their 4 cyl econobox and drives home from the track.

Maybe they'd get a kick out of knowing a motor like that was pumped to 575Hp and just won the race they watched.

Or, they still won't give a crap.

The funny thing about Lola...they built a wind tunnel model, just like they did for their 2002 submission. Cost them $750K back then.

Their cheif guy who left after negotiations with the IRL broke down? Dan Partel.
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Old 20 Jul 2010, 17:45 (Ref:2729724)   #1187
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The Toronto estimates I've read in local papers were in the 15-20,000 range. Missing a year and the major sponsorship that Molson Canada used to throw at this event has really hurt the event.
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Old 20 Jul 2010, 17:49 (Ref:2729727)   #1188
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Originally Posted by JagtechOhio View Post
The chance presented itself to ask Mr. Bernard some questions on the ICONIC strategy, so I did my best to get some hard answers.

To my surprise, Mike King actually read the questions. IndyCar Radio probably didn't have a screener working last Saturday.

To no one's surprise, most of the details about the ICONIC strategy remain open ones: we are left to see how wise these decisions will prove to be.

Every time I look at the rendering of the 2010 Dallara on track next to the 2012 Dallara, I see that a big mistake was already made. Racing both cars together brings instant variety and insures full participation. The variety of arguments presented by the IRL against this plan may be obvious to you, but looking at the picture says 1,000 words and crunching the numbers shows the loss of millions of dollars.

None of that matters now, it will come down to the capabilities of the team owners and the subsidies from manufacturers who also remain silent.

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/4...radio-activity
Well ropin randy verified I was right on the money about the cost of a current dallara chassis. I believe I said $700,000 last year and ropin randy said it was $690,000. Tim N told me I was dead wrong but I guess not.



http://tentenths.com/forum/showthrea...=119577&page=4
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Old 20 Jul 2010, 17:50 (Ref:2729728)   #1189
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Lola I think knew they were getting screwed. They definitely are not interested in paying 200K in taxes to the hulmangeorge slush fund to have the opportunity to sell aero kits.

Delta Wing, they make me sick with Dan Partel's comment about social and environmental "responsibility". Well bud I don't drive race cars in the pursuit of environmental responsibility and I don't know any other driver that thinks the same. Motor racing is an escape from all those whiners and motor racing never has been and never will be about being a saintly green man.

I don't like delta wing but if they want to start another open wheel war, I wont stand in their way, go for it.

Ultimately, I don't think you'll see many develop and sell aero kits. With the associated costs I don't see anyone making a profit.

And lets say a couple of companies did. Well I don't think those extra little farkles with different wings and such will really stimulate fan interest. Time has moved on, fans have moved on, and it's a tiny ripple in the sea. Not enough to bring back the old folks and not enough to stimulate interest in the younger crowd either.

You only have to look at last weekends disaster in Toronto. This is a race that used to pull 80000 people on race day and now they could only scrape up around 10000 people with friday and saturday being totally deserted. Couple of little different farkles on the car are not bringing those crowd numbers back.
I agree with a lot of this, mountainstar...

Especially the DeltaWing rant...Just choke down those sour grapes and race your dildo cars elsewhere...and get off of the Green Garbage...I don't go to races to care about ec-friendly cars...I want them fast and sexy-looking...

Besides, look at how the Panoz DP01 'saved' Champ Car...

this new chassis and kit combo won't attract any new fans at all...it might shut up some that wanted more variety, but there are MANY, MANY other major things wrong with IndyCar that need to be fixed if it is going to survive, let alone grow.
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Old 20 Jul 2010, 17:54 (Ref:2729732)   #1190
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The Toronto estimates I've read in local papers were in the 15-20,000 range. Missing a year and the major sponsorship that Molson Canada used to throw at this event has really hurt the event.
Over 3 days, maybe. I've seen pics of friday and saturday and you can easily count the number of people in the stands in a few seconds. I also heard there were quite a few fan complaints.

When you watch the old CART/Champcar races they provided a spectacle and noise that the current snoozer car can't do and wont be doing with the new car either.
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Old 20 Jul 2010, 17:55 (Ref:2729734)   #1191
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Very interesting read written by Gordon Kirby that has quotes from reps from the other four manufacturers.

They run the full spectrum...DeltaWing is hacked and Ashmore's design company (not necessarily BAT) will probably do an aero kit.

Lola and Swift yet to decide.

http://www.gordonkirby.com/categorie..._is_no245.html
It was an interesting article and only confirms my initial thoughts on the new chassis and that the decision surrounding the Dallara/Honda Mk II is short sighted.

The article also provided a beakdown of what it would cost to builld the aero kits and as I thought, it's going to be very pricey for one manufacturer to go it alone, unless someone like Penske or Ganassi can have a package custom made.

What is most telling is the different manufacturer's dismay at the decision to assign the chassis production soley to Dallara.

This new package is designed around a 5 year plan, which will initially raise interest come 2012. With the cost of aero packages and licence fees for both for aero packages and engines, this will certainly be seen as a turn off for anyone new wanting to compete in IndyCar racing and thus keep that initial interest going.
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Old 20 Jul 2010, 17:56 (Ref:2729735)   #1192
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Yeah, that's been the consensus from public info for a while now. I think you might be able to get a used roller for a lot less, but everyone makes up the price they want to use to justify their point, high or low.

John Barnes said that with all accessory equipment costs figured in, it was $1M per car!

The same factors are playing havoc with the comparision figures used for the new chassis. Barnhart said that $385K got you everything but the seat, wheels and a motor. Maybe that's true, and maybe it's off by about $100K worth of electronics, shocks, etc.

bjohn, agreed 100% with your comments. Poorly conceived plan.
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Old 20 Jul 2010, 18:00 (Ref:2729736)   #1193
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Relevance to a 4 cylinder is legit, although not for Delta's reason. It's because half of the (sparse) crowd jumps into their 4 cyl econobox and drives home from the track.

Maybe they'd get a kick out of knowing a motor like that was pumped to 575Hp and just won the race they watched.

Or, they still won't give a crap.

The funny thing about Lola...they built a wind tunnel model, just like they did for their 2002 submission. Cost them $750K back then.

Their cheif guy who left after negotiations with the IRL broke down? Dan Partel.
Maybe that formula would work, but I tend to think you really need 900 hp cars with lots of noise. The cars need to be difficult to drive and a challenge. We need entertainment and a spectacle.

Lola has bigger fish to fry than the irl. Motorsport is only a portion of their business now.
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Old 20 Jul 2010, 18:10 (Ref:2729744)   #1194
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I agree with a lot of this, mountainstar...

Especially the DeltaWing rant...Just choke down those sour grapes and race your dildo cars elsewhere...and get off of the Green Garbage...I don't go to races to care about ec-friendly cars...I want them fast and sexy-looking...

Besides, look at how the Panoz DP01 'saved' Champ Car...

this new chassis and kit combo won't attract any new fans at all...it might shut up some that wanted more variety, but there are MANY, MANY other major things wrong with IndyCar that need to be fixed if it is going to survive, let alone grow.
Champcar I think had a great opportunity back in 2004 to come up with a new rules package to open up some innovation and interest and instead they took the same narrow focused retreat and cut costs to the barebones. And that barebones approach sent them right to the poor house and the series gradually out of business. They really could have taken what was best about CART, put a new spin on it, kept the innovation going and I think they would have been fine. It didn't help either the business was run like a weekend hobby business.

Someone had a great column in the past few days about indycar cutting "costs" and following the path of retreat and at the same time the sport continued to shrivel.

The DP 01 BTW was a great car overall and very racy, but again nothing innovative or new, not enough to change the course when so many other problems existed. When I am old and hopefully financially successful, I would definitely want one to race in historics. The guys racing over in Euroboss with them in Europe got theirs for around $50K.
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Old 20 Jul 2010, 18:16 (Ref:2729746)   #1195
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Champcar I think had a great opportunity back in 2004 to come up with a new rules package to open up some innovation and interest and instead they took the same narrow focused retreat and cut costs to the barebones. And that barebones approach sent them right to the poor house and the series gradually out of business. They really could have taken what was best about CART, put a new spin on it, kept the innovation going and I think they would have been fine. It didn't help either the business was run like a weekend hobby business.

Someone had a great column in the past few days about indycar cutting "costs" and following the path of retreat and at the same time the sport continued to shrivel.

The DP 01 BTW was a great car overall and very racy, but again nothing innovative or new, not enough to change the course when so many other problems existed. When I am old and hopefully financially successful, I would definitely want one to race in historics. The guys racing over in Euroboss with them in Europe got theirs for around $50K.
I saw the DP01 up close at PRI in Orlando a few years ago sitting next to a Lola that it replaced...The Lola looked like a bi-Plane sitting next to a Stealth fighter jet (Panoz) when you compared the two chassis side-by-side...

I liked it, too...very racy and very cool-looking...shame they aren't really racing elsewhere except Euroboss
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Old 20 Jul 2010, 18:26 (Ref:2729751)   #1196
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I saw the DP01 up close at PRI in Orlando a few years ago sitting next to a Lola that it replaced...The Lola looked like a bi-Plane sitting next to a Stealth fighter jet (Panoz) when you compared the two chassis side-by-side...

I liked it, too...very racy and very cool-looking...shame they aren't really racing elsewhere except Euroboss
They race a version of it in the SuperLeague formula, with a V12.

I always thought Champcar made a mistake in dropping Lola and running just with the DP01. If they'd run both chassis it would have given the series variety, more impetus and Lola would have had to build a new chassis in order to compete.
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Old 20 Jul 2010, 18:36 (Ref:2729761)   #1197
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Over 3 days, maybe. I've seen pics of friday and saturday and you can easily count the number of people in the stands in a few seconds. I also heard there were quite a few fan complaints.

When you watch the old CART/Champcar races they provided a spectacle and noise that the current snoozer car can't do and wont be doing with the new car either.
I'm quite confident that guys who estimated 15,000 on Sunday weren't exaggerating, the 20k upper bound maybe. The grandstands were overpriced but the GA did better. Friday was free admittance and that supposedly had just as many people out as Sunday. Saturday was apparently pretty bad though, the Nascar CT series gets better attendance at Mosport than this race.
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Old 20 Jul 2010, 18:49 (Ref:2729767)   #1198
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They race a version of it in the SuperLeague formula, with a V12.

I always thought Champcar made a mistake in dropping Lola and running just with the DP01. If they'd run both chassis it would have given the series variety, more impetus and Lola would have had to build a new chassis in order to compete.
Champ Car (like ICS is doing now) wanted the new chassis to be delivered at a cheaper price point...at the price point Panoz sold them for, it was going to take them at least 3 years just to break even...

We all know how long that lasted...they lost their shirts...

Barnard said last weekend that all of the competitors for the ICS chassis said they could deliver for about $385,000/car as the Sole Supplier, and probably closer to $700,000 if a multiple builder scenario existed...

That's why multiple builders were not selected.

it's all about lowering the cost of going racing...
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Old 20 Jul 2010, 18:55 (Ref:2729771)   #1199
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What are they going to do for Indy in 2012?
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Old 20 Jul 2010, 19:26 (Ref:2729781)   #1200
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Barnard said last weekend that all of the competitors for the ICS chassis said they could deliver for about $385,000/car as the Sole Supplier, and probably closer to $700,000 if a multiple builder scenario existed...

That's why multiple builders were not selected.

it's all about lowering the cost of going racing...
Well with an aero kit license fee of $200k and the costs involved in producing the aero kits, that's if the figures touted in Gordon Kirby's article are to be believed, the cost of going racing is going to be expensive for aero kit manufacturers, therefore limiting the number of participants as opposed to opening up the competition.
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