Blue flag use in F1

[Mike Harte]

I am hoping that you nice boys and girls might be able to assist in a discussion we are having on the Formula 1 board.

The query arises from the penalty that Verstappen was given after the end of the Abu Dhabi GP for failing to yield after being given the waved blue flag when being lapped by Hamilton.

This has thrown up a number of views. Would some kind person please advise us onlookers what the current rules are for use of the blue flag during a F1 meeting, whether waved or stationary, and about the 3 waved flags rules.

TIA, Mike

[SWCRacing]

20.6 As soon as a car is caught by another car which is about to lap it during the race the driver must allow the faster driver past at the first available opportunity. If the driver who has been caught does not allow the faster driver past, waved blue flags will be shown to indicate that he must allow the following driver to overtake.

16.1 "Incident" means any occurrence or series of occurrences involving one or more drivers, or any action by any driver, which is reported to the stewards by the race director (or noted by the stewards and subsequently investigated) which :
a) Necessitated the suspension of a race under Article 42.
b) Constituted a breach of these Sporting Regulations or the Code.
c) Caused a false start by one or more cars.
d) Caused a collision.
e) Forced a driver off the track.
f) Illegitimately prevented a legitimate overtaking manoeuvre by a driver.
g) Illegitimately impeded another driver during overtaking.

Penalties as per 16.3 etc....


Refer to the ISC for the description of what the blue flag means

[Richard C]

(Mike, thanks for posting the question)
(SWCRacing, thanks for the reply)

To help clarify any potential remaining confusion as to what has been posted above...

1. The quoted rules above speaks to usage of "waved flag" only. Is there any concept of a stationary vs. waved blue flag? Such as stationary means someone is close behind (be prepared to potentially receive a waved flag soon?) and waved flag is that someone is trying to overtake (you need to move over)?

2. Is there any flagging at pit exit to help notify a driver of any faster cars approaching as he blends onto the track?

3. How and who determines when a waved blue flag has NOT been acted upon correctly? I could speculate, but I would likely be wrong. This speaks to Mike's question about "three waved flags".

Thanks,

Richard

[Woolley]

1) There are no stationary flags (except change of surface) in FIA meetings.

Blue flags are officially notified to the marshals in F1 rather than being down to the experience of the marshals. And for the absence of doubt, blue flags are only advisory in anything other than F1

[JABWOA]

Originally Posted by Woolley

1) There are no stationary flags (except change of surface) in FIA meetings.

Blue flags are officially notified to the marshals in F1 rather than being down to the experience of the marshals. And for the absence of doubt, blue flags are only advisory in anything other than F1

Is there still the stationary blue at pit exit or has it finally been replaced by lights?

And the Aussie V8 Supercars have the waved blue as a command flag, despite running under CAMS rules that have the blue as a caution flag. It is only shown after the team has been notified by email that a lapping situation is about to occur and the vehicle must not impede the passing. Failure to allow the car the pass, will trigger the blue flags (at race director control) and further failure to comply will be met with a black flag. Hence not too many blues are seen in V8 racing anymore. Coupled with race control directed yellow flags as well.

[deadsquirrel]

Originally Posted by Woolley

Blue flags are officially notified to the marshals in F1 rather than being down to the experience of the marshals. And for the absence of doubt, blue flags are only advisory in anything other than F1

Last year we were still free to blue flag, but there were also occasions we were instructed to blue flag car X. Along with the instruction to us to blue flag, I believe the team are informed to allow the pass - in which case the blues are not advisory but a command.

[deley]

Originally Posted by JABWOA

Is there still the stationary blue at pit exit or has it finally been replaced by lights?

FIA regs still have a stationary blue flag displayed to a driver leaving the pits if traffic is approaching on the track.

[bauble]

I profess no expertise in the subject of Blue Flags, or even blue lights, but I was under the impression that F1 cars had a 'blue flag' warning on the dashboard to advise the driver of his need to move over, and that the pit wall would also give a verbal instruction. If this is the case no one would have reason to complain about failing to give way.

Mind you in my opinion there should be no need to move over except as a courtesy. If you are faster you should be able to find your own way past.

[Mike Harte]

Originally Posted by bauble

Mind you in my opinion there should be no need to move over except as a courtesy. If you are faster you should be able to find your own way past.

Apparently, Verstappen was caught easily by Hamilton, but he then increased his speed to match Hamilton's. Hamilton was thus unable to get past, so in effect he was being impeded.

Anyway, is anyone able to answer the question about the "three waved blues" rule that is taxing the brains of us armchair know-it-alls?

[numbersix]

Originally Posted by bauble

...Mind you in my opinion there should be no need to move over except as a courtesy. If you are faster you should be able to find your own way past.

And thus it was in nobler days gone by. But in today's environment that would lead to Kvyat and both Toro Rossos going three abreast in front of Hamilton, allowing Ricciardo to race ahead

[Woolley]

Originally Posted by JABWOA

And the Aussie V8 Supercars have the waved blue as a command flag, despite running under CAMS rules that have the blue as a caution flag. It is only shown after the team has been notified by email that a lapping situation is about to occur and the vehicle must not impede the passing. Failure to allow the car the pass, will trigger the blue flags (at race director control) and further failure to comply will be met with a black flag.

That was just coming in when I did Surfers, and much muttering there was too. Given technological advances, I'm not entirely against it, to be honest.

Coupled with race control directed yellow flags as well.

Are you sure? Or do you mean SC as opposed to local yellow? I can't imagine having to phone up RC to ask if I may put out a yellow. Full course, on the other hand, definitely should be directed via comms if such an option exists.

I'm somewhat out of touch with F1 flags, since I stopped doing F1 in 2001 and refused ever to flag it even before that.

[gravel_monkey]

bit off topic but i remember the first year we had village loop, we found out we were in the direct line for all the helecopters coming in, so you can imagine what race day was like with a constant stream of choppers 30 feet over your head. on a yellow flag the FIA asked our flaggie to be more vigorous with his waved yellow. his response was. iam in the draft the helecopters, how bloody vigorous do you want it, iam just trying to hang on to the damn thing, hahaha

[275 GTB-4]

Originally Posted by Woolley

1) There are no stationary flags (except change of surface) in FIA meetings.

Blue flags are officially notified to the marshals in F1 rather than being down to the experience of the marshals. And for the absence of doubt, blue flags are only advisory in anything other than F1

You wave the Black and Meatball in the UK?

[Woolley]

Originally Posted by 275 GTB-4

You wave the Black and Meatball in the UK?

Ah, I was referring only to flags on post, not start line. But good point

Incidentally, something the Americans do better. Black flag board showing the car number displayed ahead of the final corner. Much better than our 'You've something dangerously falling off your car. Shame you've just missed the pit entrance' flag.

[The Fat Clerk]

I think the Kart circuits have it about right, they use a Light Board, meaning they can show more than 1 number at a time, can also display: False Start, Last Lap, Chequered Flag etc, etc.

It also means it only uses 1 person who can sit in an office overlooking the track seeing what's going on, not two poor Marshals in the teeth of a howling gale.

[JABWOA]

Wolley, the V8 race director has systematically dumbed down the marshal's responsibility so anyone can now do the job as long as they listen and jump when told (and has filtered down to the state level too.) Hence, a large chunk of experienced marshals have left the building, they're not needed anymore. With yellows, there will be communication with either covering it (when it doesn't need it) or withdrawing it (when it may need it.) But what I get informed now, is that some marshals wait for the decision from race control before acting.

The last time I did F1 (2-3 years ago), at Albert Park, the 3 blues and penalty rule was removed and marshals had discretion to show the blue but race control provided the update information. ie/ points 3-6 be advised that car X will lap car Y and the points themselves choose to wave if warranted. And more generic - next lapped car is Y, be prepared. There was some feedback on if the blue was actually shown back to race control (only going from what I was told on that from my comms crew.)

[Greem]

The last few years that I've been doing F1 in Britain - flags or lights - mirror what JABWOA said about being provided with information over the radio.

A certain irregular poster here provides a 'story of the race' on the blue flag radio, allowing individual flag marshals to use their discretion. The same also applies to the FIA light panels, who listen to the blue flag channel.

I can't recall having heard a "do this now" at all, apart from being told to remove a yellow light (and the related flags) because the incident, round the corner, was deemed to be offline and safe. That happens at club level too, so no real controversy there.

As for the 'three flag' rule - it would make sense if RC count the triggers from the light panels, as they can see and record each activation (hitting the yellow button causes the lap counter on the telly to change colour, in a related example). That way the time and operation of the light is in no doubt; however as I've never been in RC, I've no idea how they collate that detail.

[275 GTB-4]

Originally Posted by Woolley

Ah, I was referring only to flags on post, not start line. But good point

Incidentally, something the Americans do better. Black flag board showing the car number displayed ahead of the final corner. Much better than our 'You've something dangerously falling off your car. Shame you've just missed the pit entrance' flag.

Downunder (like) we used to have a Black Flag relay point around the circuit to back-up the Start/Finish line/CoC displays of information.

Hardest part is when Race Control call you saying the car is two corners away so get the Board out with its number and wave a Black

[275 GTB-4]

Wooley has me doing it now!! DISPLAY/SHOW the Black Flag!

[Woolley]

You can wave the number too, if you feel it warrants it!

[JABWOA]

I've done a vigorous stationary black flag before. Very fun! Also tried to put the number board through a windscreen once too, that wasn't so fun but the driver got the message.

[PVDA]

Originally Posted by Woolley

Incidentally, something the Americans do better. Black flag board showing the car number displayed ahead of the final corner. Much better than our 'You've something dangerously falling off your car. Shame you've just missed the pit entrance' flag.

We have a Black Flag Relay post in Australia at most tracks so if the Colonies can do it why can't Mother England

Originally Posted by The Fat Clerk

I think the Kart circuits have it about right, they use a Light Board, meaning they can show more than 1 number at a time, can also display: False Start, Last Lap, Chequered Flag etc, etc.

I saw former poster on here bfc put three separate numbers on the board and black flag three cars for a Jumped Start at Sandown many years ago at the Black Flag Relay post on the first lap and all three cars pealed into PIt Lane for their Drive through straight away meaning the Start line missed out on trying to grab them one at a time

[PVDA]

Originally Posted by JABWOA

But what I get informed now, is that some marshals wait for the decision from race control before acting.

No way, occasionally they might get a reminder to put out or withdraw but the good Clerks will let the Flaggies do their job on Yellow and at non F1/V8 events Blue as needed.

I know when I've been on Flaggie Comms I've kept the guys informed on who is where especially after restarts where the order gets mixed up.

[TerryD]

As I'm not a flaggy. Maybe someone could answer this for me? With the use of Blue flags how can anyone ever un-lap themselves during a race?

[275 GTB-4]

Originally Posted by TerryD

As I'm not a flaggy. Maybe someone could answer this for me? With the use of Blue flags how can anyone ever un-lap themselves during a race?

By going fast, overtaking (it happens in non-F1 races) and making up places?

Trick question?