Time to ban diesels in Super 2000?

duke_toaster · 4 Sep 2007, 10:28 (Ref:2003428)

http://www.crash.net/news_view~cid~88~id~153692.htm

There's so many rule breaks in the WTCC I can barely keep track of them (13:1 compression ratios for SEAT I think, something about someone getting flat floors not forgetting the bloody turbodiesels), some of which aren't in the BTCC (and SEAT are still leading the BTCC driver's championship without rule breaks running the petrol car).

As there can be turbocharger pressure exploits and other balancing issues, should diesels be allowed in Super 2000?

Bramzel · 4 Sep 2007, 10:59 (Ref:2003449)

I voted Allow them as they are, but i have to revoke that one and move it to 'see how good they really are'.

It's only been 2 races, and they're not dominating. All it has done is bringing the Seats back to the top of the field, making the battle even better. Whats wrong with that?

I'm strongly against banning Diesels, variation in technique is just as interesting as variation in brands or models.

**bella** · 4 Sep 2007, 12:16 (Ref:2003519)

allow them as they are. the point of touring cars is to develop new technologies. the companies running petrol engines should either adapt, improve, or change to their own diesel cars.

davyboy · 4 Sep 2007, 13:05 (Ref:2003553)

The WTCC only exists because manufacturers like SEAT, BMW, Alfa and GM [Daewoo/Chevrolet] have chosen to dump some of their marketing dollars that direction. They now see that diesel is a concept they want to promote for its 'green-ness' and if WTCC regulations embrace that, they will continue to support it. If not, they'll take their dollars elsewhere.

On the plus side, there's quite a degree of competition on garage forecourts for the 'sport-diesel' market fought out amongst many manufacturers - SEAT, BMW and Alfa among them. If the WTCC moves completely diesel - a high probability - then its likely that many more manufacturers will join in. Peugeot, VW/Audi, Ford being candidates ? That can only be a good thing.

On the downside, in my opinion diesels should be confined to big-rigs and farmyards and have no place on a racetrack... but it would seem this perspective is viewed as more and more luddite every day.

Koulle · 4 Sep 2007, 13:25 (Ref:2003563)

I say allow them, at least for now.

I like to see various technologies but I also like close racing which makes it a very complex problem.

I agree that the amount of rule breaks in WTCC is ridiculous, but the FIA are working on having more equal rules for 2009. The manufacturers need to stop pushing for rule breaks and just develop their cars.

For the future I say allow these different technologies but also some restrictions where appropriate (like standardised parts etc). Maybe the FIA should have more pre-season tests specifically to work on balancing the performance and getting the power to weight ratios as euqal as possible like they do with GT3 cars.

PorscheFanNo1 · 4 Sep 2007, 13:57 (Ref:2003591)

Isnt it E85 only for 2009? As announced a few months back.

Bramzel · 4 Sep 2007, 14:10 (Ref:2003597)

2008 will be a transition year where both fuels will be allowed, with 2009 being the first full E85 year.

Koulle · 4 Sep 2007, 16:10 (Ref:2003662)

Is it E85 for sure then?

I knew that everyone has to use bio-fuel from 2009 but I didn't think anything specific was mentioned.

**FIRE** · 4 Sep 2007, 16:49 (Ref:2003689)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bramzel

I voted Allow them as they are, but i have to revoke that one and move it to 'see how good they really are'.

It's only been 2 races, and they're not dominating. All it has done is bringing the Seats back to the top of the field, making the battle even better. Whats wrong with that?

I'm strongly against banning Diesels, variation in technique is just as interesting as variation in brands or models.

I agree

racer69 · 4 Sep 2007, 17:27 (Ref:2003715)

How about burying the current regulations and starting again, incorporating all this stuff into them.

All the changes and adjustments and rule breaks in the WTCC is seriously a joke.

Banning these diesel's and so on isn't really the best move in my opinion, so long as the current LMP1 situation doesn't arrive (plus diesel's sound awful, it's bad enough we have to put up with FWD

)

PorscheFanNo1 · 4 Sep 2007, 18:20 (Ref:2003760)

Quote:

Originally Posted by racer69

How about burying the current regulations and starting again, incorporating all this stuff into them.

All the changes and adjustments and rule breaks in the WTCC is seriously a joke.

Banning these diesel's and so on isn't really the best move in my opinion, so long as the current LMP1 situation doesn't arrive (plus diesel's sound awful, it's bad enough we have to put up with FWD

)

Agree, a Front Wheel Drive, Diesel-powered Hatchback badged as a SEAT. I mean, you cant get much further away from the term "racing" then that?

If you had told the world in the 80s thats how a world championship would have been run in 20 years time, you'd be put in the looney bin!

davyboy · 4 Sep 2007, 18:41 (Ref:2003774)

The noise and environmental lobby have an awful lot to answer for. They're sapping all the fun and excitement out of life !

racer69 · 5 Sep 2007, 06:19 (Ref:2004013)

Quote:

Originally Posted by PorscheFanNo1

If you had told the world in the 80s thats how a world championship would have been run in 20 years time, you'd be put in the looney bin!

Too right, 20 years ago the WTCC consisted of 500hp rockets, driving from the proper end, and if your car wasn't competitive, it was up to you to work harder, not lobby the FIA for a concession!

Robert Ryan · 5 Sep 2007, 07:27 (Ref:2004045)

Quote:

The noise and environmental lobby have an awful lot to answer for. They're sapping all the fun and excitement out of life

The sound of "ground breaking" Diesels..pathetic. What next Toyota Prius/GM Volt?

redshoes · 5 Sep 2007, 07:59 (Ref:2004061)

Quote:

Originally Posted by racer69

Too right, 20 years ago the WTCC consisted of 500hp rockets, driving from the proper end, and if your car wasn't competitive, it was up to you to work harder, not lobby the FIA for a concession!

Wasn't it more like, if your car wasn't competitive, cheat. Or claim someone else was cheating and get them excluded.

werner · 5 Sep 2007, 11:16 (Ref:2004186)

Yes the WTCC in the 80s was a great succes. So large that they didn't organize a 2nd year, just to remember the first one better...

werner · 5 Sep 2007, 11:18 (Ref:2004187)

doublepost

PorscheFanNo1 · 5 Sep 2007, 11:34 (Ref:2004195)

Quote:

Originally Posted by werner

Yes the WTCC in the 80s was a great succes. So large that they didn't organize a 2nd year, just to remember the first one better...

Thats the one way of seeing it, I suppose... The true story tho is that Bernie once again had a finger in the game and decided to kill the serie by introdusing the Procar regs with 3.5 litre F1 engines and carbon monocoque chassies with closed bodywork (sounds familiar to anyone?) and only the Brabham Alfa 164 was ever made for those regs, and that was that, no more WTCC.

duke_toaster · 6 Sep 2007, 16:45 (Ref:2005380)

Meh, almost all the base cars are FWD so it makes sense to have FWD racing versions. I'd allow 4WD in S2000 with even more of a weight penalty.

davyboy · 6 Sep 2007, 17:02 (Ref:2005401)

Why penalize/equalize at all. Back in the 1970s and 1980s fast cars won and slow cars didn't. If you wanted to win, you didn't take a Morris Marina out saloon car racing ! If manufacturers were serious enough, they'd build homologation specials... and the rest of us motor-racing fans would benefit from some delicious road machinery.

Maybe the whole thing needs a rethink. I want to see the top class touring car racing fought out amongst exciting cars like Audi RS4s, Holden Monaros, BMW M3s etc... and the lower classes fought out among Golf GTis, Civic Type Rs etc... Not sure the the on-track performances of the diesel SEAT Leon or the BMW 320si would make anyone in the market for a quick saloon lean towards buying them over some of their more exotic stablemates in SEAT and BMW showrooms.

duke_toaster · 6 Sep 2007, 17:38 (Ref:2005435)

Quote:

Originally Posted by davyboy

Why penalize/equalize at all. Back in the 1970s and 1980s fast cars won and slow cars didn't. If you wanted to win, you didn't take a Morris Marina out saloon car racing ! If manufacturers were serious enough, they'd build homologation specials... and the rest of us motor-racing fans would benefit from some delicious road machinery.

Why have equalization?

No equalization = boring racing = no-one wants to watch it on TV/go to the track = no-one wants to sponsor cars as no-one will see their ads = no cars = no racing.

Quote:

Maybe the whole thing needs a rethink. I want to see the top class touring car racing fought out amongst exciting cars like Audi RS4s, Holden Monaros, BMW M3s etc... and the lower classes fought out among Golf GTis, Civic Type Rs etc... Not sure the the on-track performances of the diesel SEAT Leon or the BMW 320si would make anyone in the market for a quick saloon lean towards buying them over some of their more exotic stablemates in SEAT and BMW showrooms.

The whole thing doesn't need a rethink. Touring car racing is about selling cars. Halo effect won't do it as much as F1 will. Note the newspaper and billboard ads of the Vectra - the road version next to the S2000 car. Would that be possible with a Monaro? No. You can't flog a product that the consumer doesn't want. Most people don't buy the M3s and the cars you want to flog - the Civic, Astra etc. are the top selling cars. Both of which have S2000 versions.

Keep S2000 how it is. It's working.

And RWD isn't the proper end, 4WD is. And we don't want silhouettes, do we.

racer69 · 6 Sep 2007, 17:40 (Ref:2005438)

Quote:

Originally Posted by davyboy

Why penalize/equalize at all. Back in the 1970s and 1980s fast cars won and slow cars didn't. If you wanted to win, you didn't take a Morris Marina out saloon car racing ! If manufacturers were serious enough, they'd build homologation specials... and the rest of us motor-racing fans would benefit from some delicious road machinery.

Maybe the whole thing needs a rethink. I want to see the top class touring car racing fought out amongst exciting cars like Audi RS4s, Holden Monaros, BMW M3s etc... and the lower classes fought out among Golf GTis, Civic Type Rs etc... Not sure the the on-track performances of the diesel SEAT Leon or the BMW 320si would make anyone in the market for a quick saloon lean towards buying them over some of their more exotic stablemates in SEAT and BMW showrooms.

That sounds abit too much like proper motor racing to be considered sane for the 21st century

davyboy · 6 Sep 2007, 18:04 (Ref:2005471)

Quote:

Originally Posted by duke_toaster

Why have equalization?

No equalization = boring racing = no-one wants to watch it on TV/go to the track = no-one wants to sponsor cars as no-one will see their ads = no cars = no racing.

This is what racing without equalization and rwd looks like.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kY5zdnGvT0c
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kDAK4jBKmow

Quote:

Originally Posted by duke_toaster

The whole thing doesn't need a rethink. Touring car racing is about selling cars. Halo effect won't do it as much as F1 will. Note the newspaper and billboard ads of the Vectra - the road version next to the S2000 car. Would that be possible with a Monaro? No. You can't flog a product that the consumer doesn't want. Most people don't buy the M3s and the cars you want to flog - the Civic, Astra etc. are the top selling cars. Both of which have S2000 versions.

Keep S2000 how it is. It's working.

And RWD isn't the proper end, 4WD is. And we don't want silhouettes, do we.

I think even the man in the street knows that Giovanardi's Vectra bears about as much relationship to his own Vectra as it does to a Monaro. Winning on Sunday sells cars on Monday, but not necessarily that model.

Sodemo · 6 Sep 2007, 19:22 (Ref:2005565)

I do like to see new technologies, but balanced ones.

At the moment diesels have an advantage over petrol engines in terms of low end torque.

Whilst that in itself isn't a bad thing, it could prove bad for the sport if every single racing engine produced was a diesel.

Just to preserve the historic and aural element of petrol engines, the sound they make is evocative, its passion and excitement, not a nearly silent whooosh as 25 cars go by.

Still, at least we'd hear the PA system...

racer69 · 7 Sep 2007, 07:50 (Ref:2005873)

Quote:

Originally Posted by duke_toaster

Keep S2000 how it is. It's working.

How is it working when they have had to bend the rules to keep firstly Chevrolet and nowadays Seat happy?

Quote:

Originally Posted by duke_toaster

And RWD isn't the proper end, 4WD is. And we don't want silhouettes, do we.

A while back i'd have agreed with you, but the success of the likes of NASCAR, DTM and V8Supercars running silouette type rules is hard to ignore, plus the fact that they are much more exciting cars to watch!

View Poll Results: Should diesels be banned in Super 2000?
Yes, they should be banned totally, all cars should run on petrol.	3	6.38%
Allow ethanol and so-on but ban diesels as they require turbos and that causes balancing problems.	10	21.28%
Allow them but restrict them more (no variable turbocharger pressures).	6	12.77%
Allow them as they are, even if SEAT's diesels run away with the WTCC	10	21.28%
Wait until later to see really how good they are.	18	38.30%
Voters: 47. You may not vote on this poll

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