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Old 2 Nov 2017, 06:01 (Ref:3778128)   #106
Skam85
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Skam85 should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Why not just one or two place grid penalties per element change over the limit, with the extra condition that the team must complete qualifying as normal, otherwise they automatically start from the pit lane.

The added penalty for PU element changes, is that the car must also start the race on the compound they set their final grid position in.

This ensures 1) grid penalties aren't utterly ridiculous and are capped to less than the actual grid size, 2) qualifying still occurs in its entirety, 3) the extra 'penalty' of less Sunday flexibility on strategy.
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Old 2 Nov 2017, 08:48 (Ref:3778135)   #107
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Originally Posted by Alfaholic View Post
There's a piece on Pitpass where they've added up the grid penalties for 2017 so far and for power unit related penalties (not driver infringements) the totals are...

Mercedes power units - 25 places (3 teams)
Ferrari power units - 60 places (3 teams)
Renault power units - 290 places (3 teams)
Honda power units - 390 places (1 team!)

For comparison, there's only 400 grid places over the whole 2017 championship.
Whether drivers pick up 25, 55 or even 1,000 place grid penalties is irrelevant. What really matters is how many places they lose compared to their qualifying position.

I also question the validity of the source data - at which events did Ferrari and Mercedes powered cars pick up so many grid penalties???

In that case, the positions lost due to PU changes are as follows:


Honda (69 total)
Vandoorne 28
Button 11
Alonso 30

Renault (62 total)
Kvyat 2
Verstappen 21
Ricciardo 22
Hulkenberg 2
Palmer 4
Sainz Jr 4
Hulkenberg 3
Hartley 5
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Old 2 Nov 2017, 11:28 (Ref:3778154)   #108
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S griffin should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridS griffin should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridS griffin should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridS griffin should be qualifying in the top 3 on the grid
I wonder if that means Honda were hampered because they were running a sole engine program unlike others?
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Old 2 Nov 2017, 12:52 (Ref:3778166)   #109
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Originally Posted by crmalcolm View Post
Whether drivers pick up 25, 55 or even 1,000 place grid penalties is irrelevant. What really matters is how many places they lose compared to their qualifying position.

I also question the validity of the source data - at which events did Ferrari and Mercedes powered cars pick up so many grid penalties???

In that case, the positions lost due to PU changes are as follows:


Honda (69 total)
Vandoorne 28
Button 11
Alonso 30

Renault (62 total)
Kvyat 2
Verstappen 21
Ricciardo 22
Hulkenberg 2
Palmer 4
Sainz Jr 4
Hulkenberg 3
Hartley 5
In a sporting sense, all that matter is the place they lose. But that's just based on pure luck of where the car qualifies and how many others get penalties. If there were more cars, the penalty would become much more severe. You should judge the system on what it is intending to do, rather than the outcome. You could in theory give the entire grid a 5 place penalty, so nobody loses a slot, and then say the system is worthless because it had no effect, when in reality it just isn't suited to the purpose it was intended. There are also situations where a penalised car moves forward, which means it could be read that the engine is so super reliable that it never failed - which isn't the case.

These stats should be about the average per car or driver, not the total number as it makes the Honda look closer to the Renault than it actually is. These are the averages, based purely on the numbers posted here

Positions penalised
Mercedes - 6 per driver
Ferrari - 10 per driver
Renault - 48 per driver
Honda - 195 per driver

Actual slots lost
Renault - 8 per driver
Honda - 23 per driver
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Old 2 Nov 2017, 12:53 (Ref:3778167)   #110
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Originally Posted by S griffin View Post
I wonder if that means Honda were hampered because they were running a sole engine program unlike others?
You'll gather less data and test less new parts, certainly. So it really depends on what the problem is. Do they have a lack of data? Do they know what the issue is? Do they know how to potentially fix it? Is it a manufacturing problem, and they have all the data, they just can't actually produce the fix? Lab and real world testing are very different. I guess only Honda know the answer to that.
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Old 2 Nov 2017, 13:35 (Ref:3778180)   #111
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Originally Posted by Skam85 View Post
Why not just one or two place grid penalties per element change over the limit, with the extra condition that the team must complete qualifying as normal, otherwise they automatically start from the pit lane.

The added penalty for PU element changes, is that the car must also start the race on the compound they set their final grid position in.

This ensures 1) grid penalties aren't utterly ridiculous and are capped to less than the actual grid size, 2) qualifying still occurs in its entirety, 3) the extra 'penalty' of less Sunday flexibility on strategy.
Just do it on time in that case. Penalty = pit lane start, with a delay of an appropriate number of seconds.
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Old 2 Nov 2017, 14:04 (Ref:3778188)   #112
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Originally Posted by Akrapovic View Post
These are the averages, based purely on the numbers posted here

Positions penalised
Mercedes - 6 per driver
Which race(s) did Mercedes-powered drivers receive the penalties indicated?

The original PitPass article refers to 25 places for Mercedes??
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Old 2 Nov 2017, 14:50 (Ref:3778196)   #113
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Originally Posted by crmalcolm View Post
Which race(s) did Mercedes-powered drivers receive the penalties indicated?

The original PitPass article refers to 25 places for Mercedes??
No idea, as I said I only converted the stats posted here into more relevant numbers. If someone finds more accurate stats then it's pretty easy to work out the average per car.

Totals don't mean anything because Renault supply 3 times more engines than Honda. So you need an average. It's also unfair to compare actual slots lost rather than penalised if you're wanting a picture of reliability. Mercedes cars tend to be further forward on the grid, so a 5 place drop will always be a 5 place drop. But a Honda is usually near the back, so a 25 place drop for multiple failures could turn out to only be 4 places lost. If you use the actual slots lost, this makes the Honda look more reliable than the Mercedes, when we know that isn't the case. That's why you have to compare the number penalised, because a team may not be able to serve the penalty in full. It also suggests that the engine rules were written without taking into account that there could be such reliability issues, which is a bit short sighted!

I actually mashed my calculator wrongly too. It's 4 for Mercedes, not 6. Pit pass claims 25 places across 3 teams, or 6 cars. 25/6 cars is 4.16, rounded to 4. So according to PitPass stats, Mercedes cars have lost approx 4 places on the grid each throughout the year.
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Old 2 Nov 2017, 15:33 (Ref:3778204)   #114
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Originally Posted by Akrapovic View Post
No idea, as I said I only converted the stats posted here into more relevant numbers. If someone finds more accurate stats then it's pretty easy to work out the average per car.

Totals don't mean anything because Renault supply 3 times more engines than Honda. So you need an average. It's also unfair to compare actual slots lost rather than penalised if you're wanting a picture of reliability. Mercedes cars tend to be further forward on the grid, so a 5 place drop will always be a 5 place drop. But a Honda is usually near the back, so a 25 place drop for multiple failures could turn out to only be 4 places lost. If you use the actual slots lost, this makes the Honda look more reliable than the Mercedes, when we know that isn't the case. That's why you have to compare the number penalised, because a team may not be able to serve the penalty in full. It also suggests that the engine rules were written without taking into account that there could be such reliability issues, which is a bit short sighted!

I actually mashed my calculator wrongly too. It's 4 for Mercedes, not 6. Pit pass claims 25 places across 3 teams, or 6 cars. 25/6 cars is 4.16, rounded to 4. So according to PitPass stats, Mercedes cars have lost approx 4 places on the grid each throughout the year.
I agree that an average per car/driver would be a better indication of what is going on - but there also a number of other factors at play that could also be a muddying of the waters.

Tactical changes - we see teams opt to take the penalties at a certain time, in an attempt to gain the least hurt.

Bulk changes - if a team know that they are going to take a penalty, and that they are likely to be at the back, then they may also opt for multiple elements simultaneously just to refresh. Do we know if the Hondas were further up the front, that they would have still made the multi-element changes?

Performance stress - if a certain car is battling with a lot of traffic, or attempting to make up positions, could they be pushing their engine harder than another car in clearer air or not racing a rival?

External factors - some damage to engines could be as a result of contact or driver style?

For example:
At the US GP, Vandoorne took a 30-place PU penalty, Verstappen a 15-place. I would imagine the RBR thinking was that Verstappen will still be able to get into the points from mid-low pack, but Vandoorne was just taking a whole refresh of all elements.

Was Vettel's engine change at Malaysia attributable to damage at Singapore?

Was Ricciardo's engine failure in Mexico caused by excessive heat from following cars? Possibly stress from attempting to move through the pack?


My original point was that the volume of penalties received is meaningless without the context. Whether that is the impact, contributory factors or decision making behind PU changes - all of these should be known before the data can be interpreted correctly.
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Old 2 Nov 2017, 15:50 (Ref:3778207)   #115
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S griffin should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridS griffin should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridS griffin should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridS griffin should be qualifying in the top 3 on the grid
Yes, at least a time penalty would mean qualifying would still mean something to those who have penalties
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Old 2 Nov 2017, 16:20 (Ref:3778213)   #116
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Bulk changes and tactical changes are why the penalised number should be analysed rather than the positions lost. The bulk and tactical changes are done at a time to minimise the number of actual positions lost. If you do them in one chunk, you get to take a 20 place grid drop, but only drop 15, which is better than the 5 drop over 4 races.

Other external factors are impossible to measure. Yes you could make a good discussion out of argument damage, because accidents are relatively rare occurrences. But things like stress due to performance and following other cars should balance out because each manufacturer besides Honda has 6 cars. So unless we have a strange situation where all the Mercedes runners cruise about all year, and all the Renault runners rag the engines all year, you have to assume that balances relatively correctly.

Good point about Honda swapping parts when it isn't needed. That's why they're an outlier in it all. But it's also a good example of why you need to take the numbers penalised rather than actual positions lost. If (for example) Vandoorne qualified 18th, and then swapped so many parts that he got a 50 place drop, he still only loses 2 places. A Ferrari could then swap 1 part, drop 5 spots, and it looks worse for the Ferrari.

The actual penalised spaces is a bit lost without context, but I do think that if we're just talking pure statistics, then it's much much more accurate than actual grid positions lost. The cars at the front have each penalty weighted more than the cars at the back in that situation. In an extreme case, if Manor were still here, qualifying at the back, they could blow up engines every race and never take a grid drop (or each car could only take a maximum of 1).

I completely agree that no matter how it's looked at, it isn't as clear as the stats say. But even if you twist the stats the best they can be in Hondas favour, they still come out comfortably bottom. That says a lot that you can't even manipulate the situation into making Honda decent.

Edit: Someone earlier suggested penalising constructors points for engine failures. But should Sauber lose a valuable point because a Ferrari engine they purchased failed? That also doesn't seem fair.
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