Niki Lauda's view of Formula 1

[Razor]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mK_cTgOzlo0

NSFW for some swearing but I think Niki is right. Cars these days have half to one third of the power of yesterday's cars, the tyres are too narrow and the such.

Should we do a retro look at F1 and go back to massive amounts of power, next to no downforce and big, chunky and wide tyres?

[JacobP]

Narrow tires make drivers struggle for grip. I like.

As for horsepower, who cares? The innovations in the chassis technology have allowed to make the cars go faster around the tracks, even though the power has gone down. It's not gonna help anyone if the F1 cars have 1000 HP engines but you ban all the chassis innovations from the last 30 years. Otherwise, the cars will reach the speeds and Gs that are so so high that some drivers pass out or feel dizzy.

[Gingers4Justice]

I agree with some of his points, but the mind boggles at yet another significant stakeholder publicly ripping into the product.

That's Formula One's main issue at the moment. Forget everything else - there's no faith in the product from the stakeholders.

The lack of faith and promotion is one thing - the outspoken criticism is quite another. We had the stupid nonsense with the sound of the cars, and that overshadowed some quite brilliant racing. And that's been lost this season. We've actually had quite an extraordinary season; just look at the race rating threads on this forum.

Dread to think what these critics are going to do to the sport when there's a power vacuum after Bernie's gone. There could be a very rough ride.

[Paradise City]

I'd sooner see stakeholders speak frankly from their hearts than listen to some weasley sales pitch on how everything is cool when it clearly isn't.

Of course speaking from your heart needs to be followed by sensible correctives.

[djinvicta]

I just want one thing which most will disagree with..
Just give them a gear stick back.

[greentrumpet]

Just love to see them:
- Set a sensible, transparent, budget limit.
- Retain and improve safety measures.
- Set tighter fuel limits, year on year, while freeing up newer technologies to encourage innovation.
- Leave everything else to the designers. Let's see Adrian Newey come back to F1, lets see the new Colin Chapman, Jim Hall etc.

[wnut]

Originally Posted by Paradise City

I'd sooner see stakeholders speak frankly from their hearts than listen to some weasley sales pitch on how everything is cool when it clearly isn't.

Of course speaking from your heart needs to be followed by sensible correctives.

Too right!

"Weasley sales pitch" - the way of the modern world!

Interesting to note that I can't get spell check to accept weasley/ weasely/ weaseley/ weasly in any form?!

Is it a banned word now, or does someone know how to spell it?


It is only by identifying a problem and exploring solutions that anything can be solved.
Platitudes and spin never solved any problem, someone has to speak up and a solution has to be found!

[miatanut]

Originally Posted by greentrumpet

Just love to see them:
- Set a sensible, transparent, budget limit.
- Retain and improve safety measures.
- Set tighter fuel limits, year on year, while freeing up newer technologies to encourage innovation.
- Leave everything else to the designers. Let's see Adrian Newey come back to F1, lets see the new Colin Chapman, Jim Hall etc.

[cerdic]

They should put Lauda in charge.......

[miatanut]

Lauda is stuck in his era. The 1967 cars, with less than 425 HP, were harder to drive than the cars of his era. They had no downforce, harder tires, and narrower tires.

Put the wide tires and huge wings he wants and at 1,200 HP they would be easier to drive than the current cars. With that description they would need more than 2,000 HP to turn into the kind of car he would like, but of course they would be death traps.

On the other hand, take the wings away completely and narrow the tires a little, and with the current power, all the drivers would have a major challenge hanging on.

[Andrew2001]

Yup I couldn't agree more, don't forget the Toyota Prius powerplants and the cemetry like atmosphere.
I haven't ditched my beloved sport but this is the first year I have watched less than half the races live...just the aussie gp...

[Andrew2001]

Originally Posted by miatanut

Guys, these ideas are just far too simple (read: genius!) for the bunch of suit wearing chumps at the oval table of the FIA.

[miatanut]

Originally Posted by Andrew2001

Guys, these ideas are just far too simple (read: genius!) for the bunch of suit wearing chumps at the oval table of the FIA.

They are too busy protecting the status quo.

[Paradise City]

They are all too busy prospecting for cash and outfoxing the competitor off the track. They don't take have the patience to take a nuanced view over the long term interest of the sport and the FIA is too weak a governing institution to perform that role adequately.

Even as Lauda speaks to us as a fan and says certain things most of us agree with; he'll get dragged right back into the vortex of short-termism once he puts his team boss executive cap back on. That's the nature of F1 atm - a fast-paced run away freight train.

[wnut]

Originally Posted by Paradise City

They are all too busy prospecting for cash and outfoxing the competitor off the track. They don't take have the patience to take a nuanced view over the long term interest of the sport and the FIA is too weak a governing institution to perform that role adequately.

Even as Lauda speaks to us as a fan and says certain things most of us agree with; he'll get dragged right back into the vortex of short-termism once he puts his team boss executive cap back on. That's the nature of F1 atm - a fast-paced run away freight train.

I think you may have miss read Niki here, I think he would do what is right for the sport, I think he has read the writing on the wall and he is rich and cynical enough not to have to put up with what he would call the BS.
I believe he would be the best person to run the sport following Bernie's departure and may well be working his way there!

[Andrew2001]

Originally Posted by miatanut

They are too busy protecting the status quo.

Yep well said.

[Pingguest]

Originally Posted by miatanut

Lauda is stuck in his era. The 1967 cars, with less than 425 HP, were harder to drive than the cars of his era. They had no downforce, harder tires, and narrower tires.

Put the wide tires and huge wings he wants and at 1,200 HP they would be easier to drive than the current cars. With that description they would need more than 2,000 HP to turn into the kind of car he would like, but of course they would be death traps.

On the other hand, take the wings away completely and narrow the tires a little, and with the current power, all the drivers would have a major challenge hanging on.

Lauda propeses agressive cars, which are physically more demanding and indeed require more talent to be competitive than the current breed. His idea is not necessarily better or worse than the Formula One you propose. It is just a different idea.
However, Lauda made his Formula One debut in a low-downforce era and always opposed the ground effect cars.

[JeremySmith]

The modern F1 cars are now so complex electronically that I don't think the driver would have the time to drive a far more aggressive car..

The cars these days are all about aerodynamics aren't they. I agree with Nicki in some ways bring back wider tyres and more horsepower...

Aerodynamics are for people who can't build engines.' - Enzo Ferrari
I borrowed your signature for a moment Pingguest, I hope you don't mind ?

[djinvicta]

Trouble is, Ferrari cant do either a the moment. Enzo would be turning in his grave.

[miatanut]

Originally Posted by Pingguest

Lauda propeses agressive cars, which are physically more demanding and indeed require more talent to be competitive than the current breed. His idea is not necessarily better or worse than the Formula One you propose. It is just a different idea.
However, Lauda made his Formula One debut in a low-downforce era and always opposed the ground effect cars.

Most of his career was the Cosworth DFV era, and they had wings before he made it to F1. He retired before the really insane turbos. So, the 1967 cars were harder to drive than the cars of his time, because they had NO downforce, and harder, narrower tires. Dump the wings, keep the underbodies they way they are now, keep the tires the way they are now, and we could have tough to drive beasts like he wants from the engines they use now.

I'd be all for that!

But some people would whine that the F2 cars could then lap faster. The F1 cars would certainly put on a much more exciting show than the F2 cars, even if they lapped a little slower. Plus the F1 cars would be getting the job done for about 1/3 less fuel. Cut the fuel allocation for the F2 cars back and all would be back in balance.

[Pingguest]

Originally Posted by JeremySmith

The modern F1 cars are now so complex electronically that I don't think the driver would have the time to drive a far more aggressive car..

Although the current breed of cars are - in some way - very sophisticated electronically, drivers do not have to do much. Since this year, the energy recovery systems are simply computer-controlled and react to the drivers' throttle movements. All dials and buttons on the steering wheels are mainly to allow drivers to constantly alter the car settings in accordance to the circumstances they find themselves in.

A couple of weeks ago Autosport did a research to how stressful the driving currently is and unsurprisingly they concluded 'Ayrton Senna's era' was more stressful both physically and mentally. The cars in that era were physically hard to drive because of the simple reason they generated an awful amount of downforce and lacked driver aids - apart from the Ferrari's, all cars were still fitted with manual gearboxes.
But one have to ask whether a(n artificial) return to that era is desirable. The downforce levels those cars generated, would make close racing and overtaking virtually impossible.

[miatanut]

Originally Posted by Pingguest

Although the current breed of cars are - in some way - very sophisticated electronically, drivers do not have to do much. Since this year, the energy recovery systems are simply computer-controlled and react to the drivers' throttle movements. All dials and buttons on the steering wheels are mainly to allow drivers to constantly alter the car settings in accordance to the circumstances they find themselves in.

A couple of weeks ago Autosport did a research to how stressful the driving currently is and unsurprisingly they concluded 'Ayrton Senna's era' was more stressful both physically and mentally. The cars in that era were physically hard to drive because of the simple reason they generated an awful amount of downforce and lacked driver aids - apart from the Ferrari's, all cars were still fitted with manual gearboxes.
But one have to ask whether a(n artificial) return to that era is desirable. The downforce levels those cars generated, would make close racing and overtaking virtually impossible.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sX3xa8MaHqU

That doesn't look very glued-down. Check out the yaw.

The wings are a lot smaller now, but the current cars probably have more downforce than the 1994 cars. In any case, they are more planted now. But, if true, that would partly support your comment that the current cars require less from the driver.

Eliminating most of the downforce would make it a much better show for the fans, and the reduction in wings would improve passing. Win/win.

Except for the people who obsess about lap time in an era when all cars are limited for safety.

[JeremySmith]

Originally Posted by Pingguest

Although the current breed of cars are - in some way - very sophisticated electronically, drivers do not have to do much. Since this year, the energy recovery systems are simply computer-controlled and react to the drivers' throttle movements. All dials and buttons on the steering wheels are mainly to allow drivers to constantly alter the car settings in accordance to the circumstances they find themselves in.

A couple of weeks ago Autosport did a research to how stressful the driving currently is and unsurprisingly they concluded 'Ayrton Senna's era' was more stressful both physically and mentally. The cars in that era were physically hard to drive because of the simple reason they generated an awful amount of downforce and lacked driver aids - apart from the Ferrari's, all cars were still fitted with manual gearboxes.
But one have to ask whether a(n artificial) return to that era is desirable. The downforce levels those cars generated, would make close racing and overtaking virtually impossible.

I am not surprised at this finding...We only have to watch Senna at Monaco in a McLaren Honda it looks very very physical to say the least...

[miatanut]

I think some of it is just the engineers are better at their jobs now.

There is more knowledge about suspension, damping and tires now. They simulate things to death. They are able to design cars that reduce the load on the driver by not suddenly changing handling characteristics as much during a corner.

[TRuss]

Exactly. The sophistication is far greater now. If you took one of those Senna cars and changed nothing in terms of weight, output, tire size or any of that but, built to today's standard of sophistication "fit and finish" so to speak...it would be a totally different experience for the driver. A smoother, friendlier car would be the result. The only way that you can capture the idea of putting the current drivers in the kind of cars that Lauda or Senna or whoever would have driven is to put them in the actual cars that Lauda or Senna or whoever would have driven. High stakes historical gp racing. No matter how retro and romantic the technical regs of of 1977 may seem at first glance those guys have learned a lot over these last 30-40 years.