Sunbeam Rapier in Historic racing?

[kkj]

To use a Rapier in historic racing seems like a hopeless idea. No go-fast parts seems to be allowed. Does anyone know how the Alan Fraser Racing Team
Sunbeam Rapier Mk 3A was built for instance? Are there anyone driving a Rapier?

[morninggents]

Arthur Smith-Fitchett races occasionally with Masters and HRSR/HSCC. Ex-Pedro Rodruiges car, I believe.

[Al Weyman]

I have seen one racing with the Classic Touring Car Racing Clubs Pre 66's a while back, maybe worth sticking a request up on the forum as someone will probably know something about it.

[Mike Bell]

Originally Posted by kkj

To use a Rapier in historic racing seems like a hopeless idea. No go-fast parts seems to be allowed. Does anyone know how the Alan Fraser Racing Team
Sunbeam Rapier Mk 3A was built for instance? Are there anyone driving a Rapier?

The same could be said for a lot of other cars from that era but they are all racing. Guess it depends on how restrictive the rules are and some race series are less so than others. Rapiers have raced at Goodwood Revival on several occassions (Jim Utting for one), as well as other UK series. Sounds like you want a car to race at the front- that would be a Cortina then!

[Peter Mallett]

Don't they fit quite well with HRDC?

[Mike Bell]

Originally Posted by Peter Mallett

Don't they fit quite well with HRDC?

Depends on the model of Rapier, I would guess? HRDC saloons are pre 1960, so presume anything up to Series 3 (1959), which although still 1494cc 3 bearing engine had discs, twin carbs and alloy head. The 1725cc 5 bearing lump didn't come in until 1965.

[kkj]

Originally Posted by Mike Bell

........ Sounds like you want a car to race at the front- that would be a Cortina then!

Call it the "Cortina class" Yes, it has a light and (relatively) stiff body and it has the engine.

No, nobody can expect a Rapier in the front within the rules. But hopeless dead last is no fun. I have seen a "you tube" video from Goodwood revival and I noticed the Austin A35 going like it had a 1340 modern full race engine, and a Austin Westminster in the front. A Westminster!! It's a "barge", a "loaf" or whatever you call it in English.

Series 3A -61, S 4 -63. Both had the 1600cc 3 bearing engine, disk brakes (not like the 1725cc in the series 5 -65) Not completely useless in Classic Touring Car Racing Clubs Pre 66's? (Why doesn't Series5 -65 fit there?)
There must be some Rootes fanatic in UK!!

[kkj]

Originally Posted by morninggents

Arthur Smith-Fitchett races occasionally with Masters and HRSR/HSCC. Ex-Pedro Rodruiges car, I believe.

I have been a passanger in that car many years ago!! It felt slow however. Saving to "go-fast" engine in the workshop??

[GORDON STREETER]

I actually started work at Alan Fraser's in the early 60s when they raced/rallied Rapiers.
With a bit of help from the factory they were quite successful in their day probably because of preparation/reliability more than being the fastest car out there, but were soon outclassed by the lighter model cars Mini's/Anglia's etc that were coming on stream.
When the Imp came along they had one of the first (even before it had a name) and realised that was the way to go and as history shows they were right.

[john ruston]

Westminster and A35 engines were probably a trifle developed for Goodwood.

Don't read to much in what you see.It's theatre not real you know.

[simon drabble]

Westminsters run Healey engines I think but Delta will be able to confirm as he run's Jim Woodley's one.

Of course a pre 63 race series would conveiently exclude Lotus Cortina's (which have become so developed as to no longer be relevant to historic racing) and allow cars like the Rapier, Cortina GT's Jaguar Mk2's etc to race as they did in period. The fatc that I am currently building a Mk 2 is purely co incidental!

[Mike Bell]

Originally Posted by john ruston

Westminster and A35 engines were probably a trifle developed for Goodwood.

Don't read to much in what you see.It's theatre not real you know.

First prize for understatement, John!

[Al Weyman]

Those Goodwood entries are just a joke, I have had a good look around some of the Westies and A35's etc and there is no other Historic series they could race in like that, definitely not Apps K and not even the looser regs but eminintly more sensible regs of the CTCRC.

BTW a later Holbay engined Rapier could be cool.

[kkj]

Originally Posted by john ruston

Westminster and A35 engines were probably a trifle developed for Goodwood.

Don't read to much in what you see.It's theatre not real you know.

No FIA App K reg. then.... so you could enter whatever? Even an Hillman Minx with a uprated Holbay engine and a close-ratio 5 speed and brake diff. and real brakes and suspension! Oh heaven!!

[simon drabble]

surely as saloon racing in the 50's was domestoc only there is no appendix k?

[john ruston]

Goodwood cars-All depends on who you are.It all adds interest and that's what it's all about.

No problem as long as it's transparent

[kkj]

In the boot of an Danish Escort in historic racing. A bit "unhistoric?"

[zefarelly]

Arthurs car is very period correct, so not really competitive in any modern series. rather than *******ise a little piece of history I believe He's building an Alpine to play with instead. says it all really.

[kkj]

Originally Posted by zefarelly

Arthurs car is very period correct, so not really competitive in any modern series. rather than *******ise a little piece of history I believe He's building an Alpine to play with instead. says it all really.

A Rootes man then?

[LAK]

Arthur and his father hold a similar philosophy to Jason and myself and we greatly admire his Rapier and the fact that he's bringing out something else to play with. We suffer the same issues with our Lancia Aurelia - it's completely road legal, has little mods (slightly hotter engine but nothing compared to the Astons and Jags) but is the most fantastic car to drive and I'm proud of driving it every time I get in it.

We have the Griff (again road legal and virtually standard compared to most Griffs) and the modern Fiat Coupe (again road legal but a real Q car) if we want to have a blast.

To us it's all about enjoying the car and then entering it in the right events to get the most amount of pleasure in it. We did pre-63 last year in the Aurelia and loved every race although the reality is that we are right at the back. This year the car has proved pretty competitive in Julius' HRDC race series but it's horses for courses. If Goodwood is your bag then you'll probably buy a car just to get an entry. If you simply adore your car and want to enjoy it on a race track then choose either a series where it's competitive or a series that takes you to amazing tracks (Monza etc) albeit you're at the back.

[zefarelly]

in a nutshell, yes . . .

braided hoses in prehistoric bangers always make me laugh . . . 4-5psi fuel pressure and 10lb water pressure really does need fugly Concorde spec bling (granted EFI is a little different)

[Al Weyman]

True enough, bit like the early NASCAR cars of the 50's thats started off as Booze runners!

[zefarelly]

having recently acquired and watched colour footage of the tin top meeting at Silverstone in May 1963 ( first outing of the Galaxy) You can see that the Cortina GT was the class leader but the Rapier was up there with it. both battling for class honours. The Jag was obviously a front runner at that point. It was the beginning of the end for that wave of cars.

[kkj]

Originally Posted by LAK

Arthur and his father hold a similar philosophy to Jason and myself and we greatly admire his Rapier and the fact that he's bringing out something else to play with. We suffer the same issues with our Lancia Aurelia - it's completely road legal, has little mods (slightly hotter engine but nothing compared to the Astons and Jags) but is the most fantastic car to drive and I'm proud of driving it every time I get in it..........

That sound great and my way. Go for front running car and spend a fortune or having fun for less money. And another thing - If you have a top runner and superfast car, you have obligation to be in the front otherwise the whole world will think you are a "duffer" or hopeless driver.

[LAK]

So kkj, get a Rapier sorted and come out to play with us in the HRDC (UK events). Great club spirit and so far, great racing. Be proud of your car and enjoy using it.

And yes, who wants a front running car when personally I'm not entirely sure I have the talent to do it justice - too much pressure. Reminds me of when we did the Spa 6 hours and everyone told us we'd need to change everything (tryes, brakes etc) at each pit stop. We didn't have that many spares and ran at a reduced rate with no issues, changing of anything and guess who won the class...?! Mind you I do enjoy a blast in out 350bhp Griff and 370bhp Fiat Coupe...