[WEC] Toyota LMP1 Discussion

[Juntos]

I wonder what Toyota has been testing knowing in advance that they already won Le Mans and WEC LMP1 Super season...

[Deleted]

Originally Posted by Juntos

I wonder what Toyota has been testing knowing in advance that they already won Le Mans and WEC LMP1 Super season...

They have won the championship in advance yes, we all know that, but not LM (neither of them) which is the only thing that really matters

[TF110]

They haven't won anything yet. I do think they'll improve on pace year over year like usual, but I don't think it'll be a cake walk like most seem to feel. I see the speeds and lap times these private cars are setting in testing and it looks really good for a challenge!

[E.B]

Exactly. How close to a comfortable win did they get only for the car to fail (ie for the event to beat Toyota) in the final 3 minutes of 24 hours. Although Porsche won that year, they did not really 'beat' Toyota in as much as the event beat Toyota

I dont think their statement is dismissing the opposition other than it being a modern day take on "To finish first, first you have to finish" type of statement.

[TF110]

Toyota want varying performance (like hybrid power) levels to be equalized in future lmp1. Not sure if that's breaking news but it sounds like they're open to reducing the reliance on hybrid power and increasing engine power, which sounds good to me!

[Bentley03]

Originally Posted by TF110

Toyota want varying performance (like hybrid power) levels to be equalized in future lmp1. Not sure if that's breaking news but it sounds like they're open to reducing the reliance on hybrid power and increasing engine power, which sounds good to me!

I see that as a 100% sensible approach which should massively widen the appeal of the category to those who want to come and play. And, whilst nothing is certain, it implies Toyota's desire to remain in the class long term, which is terrific news.

[Deleted]

Originally Posted by TF110

Toyota want varying performance (like hybrid power) levels to be equalized in future lmp1. Not sure if that's breaking news but it sounds like they're open to reducing the reliance on hybrid power and increasing engine power, which sounds good to me!

"I could not imagine the top category at Le Mans where everything is frozen and you have a kind of spec car," he said. "This is not what we expect from Le Mans and I hope this is not where Le Mans wants to go."

I hope that's meant as direct insult towards the DPi nonsense.

[TF110]

Originally Posted by Chiana

"I could not imagine the top category at Le Mans where everything is frozen and you have a kind of spec car," he said. "This is not what we expect from Le Mans and I hope this is not where Le Mans wants to go."

I hope that's meant as direct insult towards the DPi nonsense.

I took it as such too. Even the fan survey showed that a majority of people do NOT want DPi to be the top class. I think the GTP style cars like the Gazoo SuperSport concept is the way forward. That's more towards brand identity than what DPi is. None of them look like their road brand makers. They're just different headlights. Mazda has done the most but without the Mazda symbol/branding it honestly just looks like a catfish mouth in the front

[Bentley03]

Originally Posted by TF110

I took it as such too. Even the fan survey showed that a majority of people do NOT want DPi to be the top class.

Each to their own. Clearly DPi works for many people, and not for others, certainly not for me, but I do get it, I just don't like it.

[Deleted]

They expect to stay for the 19-20 season, against the assumed privateers again
https://www.autosport.com/wec/news/1...out-wec-hiatus

Originally Posted by TF110

I took it as such too. Even the fan survey showed that a majority of people do NOT want DPi to be the top class. I think the GTP style cars like the Gazoo SuperSport concept is the way forward. That's more towards brand identity than what DPi is. None of them look like their road brand makers. They're just different headlights. Mazda has done the most but without the Mazda symbol/branding it honestly just looks like a catfish mouth in the front

TBH I actually do LIKE the way I look (I couldn't care less for finding visual brand identity in what should [theoretically in this case lol] be a *prototype* anyway), I mean they do aesthetically do a good job in finding fancy and modern solution for a class - mainly thanks to them just being glorified stock LMP2s in the first place. However it's the relentless, never ending performance balancing + not allowed to have any *actual* development that makes it literally unwatchable, as well as - in fact even more importantly - that they are not what they claim to be.

I don't care if you have the motor coming off from Chevrolet or whoever if your chassis is basically nothing but a rebranded spec Dallara with some slapped-off cheap body panels that do nothing. I find it insulting to a viewer to refer it to as "Cadillac" or "Mazda" or "Nissan" or "Acura" or whatever, not even mentioning the REAL THING underneath, in essence they are cheap manufactured stock cars. The worst case is the Nissan which has nothing Nissan about it, even the bodywork is only there because the organizer specifically forced Onroak to add more of it to not have identical spec Onroak to spec Onroak.

That may be the Daytona way, but it never should be the Le Mans way. At least I trust that the ACO GTP would make honest cars racing with technology factory. Which is why I pray they are listening more to Toyota than these other cheap pocket Zak Brown etc lobbyists

[Articus]

Originally Posted by Chiana

That may be the Daytona way, but it never should be the Le Mans way. At least I trust that the ACO GTP would make honest cars racing with technology factory. Which is why I pray they are listening more to Toyota than these other cheap pocket Zak Brown etc lobbyists

I do understand what you are saying. And for many years I do agree with you.
However I'm conflicted, because our interest (yours and mine) killed the class. The class became cost prohibitive as soon as manufacturers are involved in this open development spending war. Despite reducing to engine quantity limits, 2 aero bodywork shapes, and so on.

You fundamentally either have "stock or homologated spec cars" and BOP. or Open development and cost spiraling out of control (aka F1, except F1 is the only form of racing that has the repute to sustain itself even in a noncompetitive and costly championship). Realistically, how does an open development hybrid GTP formula not end the way it did in 1999? What am I missing?

No manufacturer bean counters want to pay for sportscar racing in the way that we want to see it. Which is wildly open development and no BOP.

What answer is there left other than some type of class with BOP and no development?

[Deleted]

Originally Posted by Articus

I do understand what you are saying. And for many years I do agree with you.
However I'm conflicted, because our interest (yours and mine) killed the class. The class became cost prohibitive as soon as manufacturers are involved in this open development spending war. Despite reducing to engine quantity limits, 2 aero bodywork shapes, and so on.

You fundamentally either have "stock or homologated spec cars" and BOP. or Open development and cost spiraling out of control (aka F1, except F1 is the only form of racing that has the repute to sustain itself even in a noncompetitive and costly championship). Realistically, how does an open development hybrid GTP formula not end the way it did in 1999? What am I missing?

No manufacturer bean counters want to pay for sportscar racing in the way that we want to see it. Which is wildly open development and no BOP.

What answer is there left other than some type of class with BOP and no development?

No class has been killed off... it's in the nature of Le Mans to have recurring periods in time - for various reasons - when manufacturers suddenly disappear and you only have some leftover remnants of them battling against the (reborn because of sudden chance for success) privateers. Only of that to run it's course in few years and new breed of manufacturers to battle on. It's nothing to do with rules. There will always be interest for the top class at Le Mans, no matter what the regulations are, because it's the biggest race in the world... they don't have the problem many other classes have because of that. When there's lot of opposing competition it can be good for OEMs as it gives them great advertisement, and when there's not a lot of opposing competition it can be advantageous just as well because of "easier" chance to win the race.

The answer is to press on on the road you have chosen and not give up on cheap, easy, manipulated answers like DPi (or akin to that). They have already taken the lazy route with LMGTE and to some extent LMP2, no need to do that with top class as well when we KNOW that the history repeats itself at LM with the periodical fluctuations. Of course -some- regulatory steps need to be taken so not to fall of the road in terms of relevancy, but evolutions, not revolutions in ideology. Giving up is what the rest of the world does, but you shouldn't fall into that trap.

F1 is the king for a reason (regardless of what me may think of it), it treats itself like king. P1 should as well. Not as some duke or something...

[Articus]

Originally Posted by Chiana

The answer is to press on on the road you have chosen and not give up on cheap, easy, manipulated answers like DPi (or akin to that). They have already taken the lazy route with LMGTE and to some extent LMP2, no need to do that with top class as well when we KNOW that the history repeats itself at LM with the periodical fluctuations. Of course -some- regulatory steps need to be taken so not to fall of the road in terms of relevancy, but evolutions, not revolutions in ideology. Giving up is what the rest of the world does, but you shouldn't fall into that trap.

F1 is the king for a reason (regardless of what me may think of it), it treats itself like king. P1 should as well. Not as some duke or something...

I think you've chose to harsh a stance on GTE. There are a few manufacturers who quite simply would not be in it right now, if the rules were not the way they are. So for me, that is what it needs to be in order to not have a single make category....But that's just my opinion I guess.

And then on a whole. We aren't in the 2000s anymore. WEC can't afford to have a "lull" and a "stew" waiting a few years for the next group of manufacturers to show up.

Why do you think TV coverage is so bad as is? Or even the salvage that is next years Super Season...Porsche and Audi may have pulled out because of Dieselgate, but no other manufacturers bare Toyota have been chomping at the bit to be here....We've had it one way for so long, and now it needs to be different for the sake of being different. I don't know what the solution is. But it is certainly not just keeping the current ruleset....

[TF110]

I think no other manufacturers showed up because of Porsche and Audi (spending). Even before Toyota joined it was only Peugeot vs Audi and they had to use a diesel to be competitive/win. It seems there's only a few manufacturers who want to do all the work but plenty (I should say more) who want the Nascar/Dpi route because there's not much work to do. The ACO purposely made lmp2 with a single engine and 4 chassis to move guys like this up to lmp1. But of course instead of agreeing with this, Nascar feels it's better to use lmp2 for dpi. I really can't understand it.

In the new rules, I really hope they go more in depth with a GTP style car. Low, wide, cool-looking cars that are like prototypes but GT's. Like a step beyond Super GT. I fear that these 'cheap' guys over in IMSA won't want to do any more work than they have done now and there will be another stalemate between real lmp1's gtp's and rebadge jobs running here in the states. Toyota seems to be in the first camp and hopefully more follow. It doesn't have to be expensive, super-hybrid cars either. That's what the article above covers. Here's hoping. In the meantime at least we have Toyota and 8 other lmp1's that should put on a good show.

[Deleted]

Originally Posted by Articus

I think you've chose to harsh a stance on GTE. There are a few manufacturers who quite simply would not be in it right now, if the rules were not the way they are. So for me, that is what it needs to be in order to not have a single make category....But that's just my opinion I guess.

And then on a whole. We aren't in the 2000s anymore. WEC can't afford to have a "lull" and a "stew" waiting a few years for the next group of manufacturers to show up.

Why do you think TV coverage is so bad as is? Or even the salvage that is next years Super Season...Porsche and Audi may have pulled out because of Dieselgate, but no other manufacturers bare Toyota have been chomping at the bit to be here....We've had it one way for so long, and now it needs to be different for the sake of being different. I don't know what the solution is. But it is certainly not just keeping the current ruleset....

It's called making a deal with the devil. You get what you want, but pay a price for it. The defence argument I hear time after time for special waivers and totally broken rulebook not being the biggest deal ever is that "well the others agreed of the competitor x running unauthorized items so it's all fine" but that's because obviously the manufacturers want there to be as many competing similarly performing OEMs around them as possible, to make it look marketable and sexy. It doesn't matter to them if the others run illegal whatever-goes cars (just as they do...) because it's all performance balanced to death anyway. When you are in an environment where it's the power of politics that wins you races, not what you actually may or may not have, you get GTE, GT3 and DPi, and other growing number of categories. It's entertainment racing.

As for ACO being able to afford anything, or 'what needs to be done', well we can make arguments whether it really makes sense for there to be FIA world championship in the first place in this environment when quite probably a smaller scale intercontinental series would serve the same job of building a momentum around Le Mans, but it is what it is.

Originally Posted by TF110

I think no other manufacturers showed up because of Porsche and Audi (spending). Even before Toyota joined it was only Peugeot vs Audi and they had to use a diesel to be competitive/win. It seems there's only a few manufacturers who want to do all the work but plenty (I should say more) who want the Nascar/Dpi route because there's not much work to do. The ACO purposely made lmp2 with a single engine and 4 chassis to move guys like this up to lmp1. But of course instead of agreeing with this, Nascar feels it's better to use lmp2 for dpi. I really can't understand it.

In the new rules, I really hope they go more in depth with a GTP style car. Low, wide, cool-looking cars that are like prototypes but GT's. Like a step beyond Super GT. I fear that these 'cheap' guys over in IMSA won't want to do any more work than they have done now and there will be another stalemate between real lmp1's gtp's and rebadge jobs running here in the states. Toyota seems to be in the first camp and hopefully more follow. It doesn't have to be expensive, super-hybrid cars either. That's what the article above covers. Here's hoping. In the meantime at least we have Toyota and 8 other lmp1's that should put on a good show.

I think no-one else showed up because they didn't want to be forced to be using hybrids, when that wasn't their driving agenda in road cars.

And they didn't use diesel to be able to win, Audi brought it up in 2006 for marketing reasons and Pug followed the norm. Sure they were light years ahead of the petrol cars but it's not like the privateer gap to factories magically changed when the petrol factory cars arrived. ACO just doesn't boost the privateers up unless there's a so-called force majeure like this year, and the last time circa 04-06

Agree with the rest

[Articus]

All good points. Apologies, I just noticed it was the Toyota LMP thread.

[TF110]

Originally Posted by Chiana

It's called making a deal with the devil. You get what you want, but pay a price for it. The defence argument I hear time after time for special waivers and totally broken rulebook not being the biggest deal ever is that "well the others agreed of the competitor x running unauthorized items so it's all fine" but that's because obviously the manufacturers want there to be as many competing similarly performing OEMs around them as possible, to make it look marketable and sexy. It doesn't matter to them if the others run illegal whatever-goes cars (just as they do...) because it's all performance balanced to death anyway. When you are in an environment where it's the power of politics that wins you races, not what you actually may or may not have, you get GTE, GT3 and DPi, and other growing number of categories. It's entertainment racing.

As for ACO being able to afford anything, or 'what needs to be done', well we can make arguments whether it really makes sense for there to be FIA world championship in the first place in this environment when quite probably a smaller scale intercontinental series would serve the same job of building a momentum around Le Mans, but it is what it is.



I think no-one else showed up because they didn't want to be forced to be using hybrids, when that wasn't their driving agenda in road cars.

And they didn't use diesel to be able to win, Audi brought it up in 2006 for marketing reasons and Pug followed the norm. Sure they were light years ahead of the petrol cars but it's not like the privateer gap to factories magically changed when the petrol factory cars arrived. ACO just doesn't boost the privateers up unless there's a so-called force majeure like this year, and the last time circa 04-06

Agree with the rest

I mean that Peugeot or any other had to use diesel to win from 2006 onwards. So the hybrid aspect is the same in that regard, but every major automaker has a hybrid, not so much a diesel. It's not hard to use a hybrid, private cars have used a hybrid long before 2014. I think the major thing that kept manufacturers away was the amount the VW was spending. You can't join in and compete with them on a budget. They're gone now, but the next ruleset is in a couple years, no reason to enter now. Toyota which has it's own stuff and does 90% of the car/engine in-house couldn't compete even spending something around 80 million, and had to accelerate their new car. I think if they can keep the chassis for 3 seasons and just make the upgrades in aero/mechanical that will keep the costs down. That way they're not doing entirely new cars every year. At least the privateers are seeing the rules are favorable so we have that even if manufacturers aren't joining Toyota.

[Deleted]

Originally Posted by TF110

I mean that Peugeot or any other had to use diesel to win from 2006 onwards. So the hybrid aspect is the same in that regard, but every major automaker has a hybrid, not so much a diesel. It's not hard to use a hybrid, private cars have used a hybrid long before 2014. I think the major thing that kept manufacturers away was the amount the VW was spending. You can't join in and compete with them on a budget. They're gone now, but the next ruleset is in a couple years, no reason to enter now. Toyota which has it's own stuff and does 90% of the car/engine in-house couldn't compete even spending something around 80 million, and had to accelerate their new car. I think if they can keep the chassis for 3 seasons and just make the upgrades in aero/mechanical that will keep the costs down. That way they're not doing entirely new cars every year. At least the privateers are seeing the rules are favorable so we have that even if manufacturers aren't joining Toyota.

I would argue of it being pretty certain that had there been third proper factory team (I'm not really counting those shoestring-budget Aston Martins as such) who wanted to run petrol say in 2009, the treatment they'd have got would have been the same exact one as Toyota got in 2012. As in making sure there wasn't going to be any kind of gross difference between petrol and diesel.

I don't think it was as much about being against running hybrids as per say, but that they played such a big factor in the category and there was less empathizing on other things someone might have wanted. However, as I hinted earlier, at least the ACO stood by the rules and didn't give up on the lobby demands some parties might've had behind the curtains, which is good.

[carbsmith]

Edit: I am lost

[Adam43]

Originally Posted by Articus

All good points. Apologies, I just noticed it was the Toyota LMP thread.

Time to move this to a more relevant thread please. Obviously all things are related, but it would help other aspects to the Toyota thread if this was moved to one of the other more general rule and future threads, thank you.

[JoeW04]

https://www.motorsport.com/wec/news/...lonso-1009457/

Good to hear from him, sounds like he isn't sitting about feeling sorry for himself either

[Deleted]

Originally Posted by JoeW04

https://www.motorsport.com/wec/news/...lonso-1009457/

Good to hear from him, sounds like he isn't sitting about feeling sorry for himself either

But it's weird he won't do anything at LM considering there isn't really much stuff to do for reserve drivers thanks to ever stricter testing restrictions, and also the VW drivers in the past have proved that you can still do the dual role in P2 or wherever... the "only overall victory matters" kind of tells the real story (not that I can blame him there...)

[Coach Ep]

Good to see others willing/able to fill the roles of those who are blocked to participate at Petit because of the Fuji clash. Davidson would be an excellent addition to the IMSA grid. I believe he won the petit Petit with Peugeot back in '09 (and maybe 2010 as well)?

[S griffin]

Davidson is not one to complain, he knows how lucky he is to still be with Toyota and also knows why it was hard to turn down Fred. I certainly hope we haven't seen the last of him

[Juntos]

Davidson is very lucky for having such a well-paid job.