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Old 8 May 2018, 22:23 (Ref:3820917)   #226
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I'm sorry as I'm sure this has been answered somewhere before, but what is the cost difference between running a DPi and running a P2? Not a full factory effort, but a DPi like SoD or AXR (estimated or best guesses as I doubt we have solid numbers)? And how come only those two have decided to run a DPi, and they've both gone for Cadillacs? I'm assuming the Nissan's are private run and built exclusively for and by ESM, but I'd imagine that a true factory effort like Mazda and Acura could build and sell another chassis right? If the cost of the cars themselves isn't dramatically more than a P2, then wouldn't it be a better solution to just get rid of P2 entirely and mandate that all manufacturers have to build and sell extra cars, kinda like F1 with engine Manus?
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Old 8 May 2018, 23:14 (Ref:3820929)   #227
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Maybe DPi could just I don't know, actually follow its own supposed concept. I don't really understand why they (allegedly) keep getting faster, they should be just as frozen as the P2 cars according to the cost containment intents.

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For any car companies looking into DPi, the budget-wasting precedent must be a concern.
I would think the manufacturers all throwing money down a hole to build BoP cars far faster than the original target performance level would be more than a bit of a concern anyways...

It doesn't make any sense that a class of cars that was supposed to make up for an aero and weight deficit from running production based stuff with extra power is supposedly running at a power deficit. There's a fundamental problem with the class in that case and it isn't P2 cars. But honestly I'm not buying half of the stuff in this article anyways, I can't decide whether it's Pruett's narrow sighted pining to get a less spec class or just the NASCAR party line about why P2s getting shafted is a good thing because an ORECA with an Accord engine is so clearly more advanced than an ORECA with a proper race engine.
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Old 9 May 2018, 01:39 (Ref:3820938)   #228
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Pruett says that the only big tricky part about the split would be if a full-on, full time all pro LMP2 ever showed up.
Right and who would pay for that? Surely not Michael himself.
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Old 9 May 2018, 02:19 (Ref:3820941)   #229
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I don't agree with the idea of split DPi and P2 cars. First because we will lose the original idea of being able to take a P2 and compete for the overall win, we will lose the european teams crossing the Atlantic too. Worst of all, the DPi will become faster and faster and that means more money, but cost is what the DPi have of attractive.

I think the key is still the BoP. The problem is that the biggest race is the first one, and it have place in a very particular place. After Daytona BoP is always changed because tires changes for Sebring and the rest of the season. Sebring was a good race for the DPi, but a crap for the P2 cars.

At Mid Ohio, Acura and Mazda were realy fast, but he rest of the field was in a close fight.


Last year we have good races with the yellow banana almost winning two races, and then a Ligier winning at Laguna Seca. At the end of the year, Penske, Rebellion and JDC were at the front of the race most of the time, so, it's not just BoP, teams matter too. Where is JDC team this year? Totally lost at the back of the field. It's the only team running the same car that was competitive last year.

IMSA have to find a good BoP and dont move it race by race to reach some credibility, that's the biggest point IMO.
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Old 9 May 2018, 17:14 (Ref:3821084)   #230
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I don't agree with the idea of split DPi and P2 cars. First because we will lose the original idea of being able to take a P2 and compete for the overall win, we will lose the european teams crossing the Atlantic too. Worst of all, the DPi will become faster and faster and that means more money, but cost is what the DPi have of attractive.

I think the key is still the BoP. The problem is that the biggest race is the first one, and it have place in a very particular place. After Daytona BoP is always changed because tires changes for Sebring and the rest of the season. Sebring was a good race for the DPi, but a crap for the P2 cars.

At Mid Ohio, Acura and Mazda were realy fast, but he rest of the field was in a close fight.


Last year we have good races with the yellow banana almost winning two races, and then a Ligier winning at Laguna Seca. At the end of the year, Penske, Rebellion and JDC were at the front of the race most of the time, so, it's not just BoP, teams matter too. Where is JDC team this year? Totally lost at the back of the field. It's the only team running the same car that was competitive last year.

IMSA have to find a good BoP and dont move it race by race to reach some credibility, that's the biggest point IMO.
If they align DPi with private lmp1, we'll have european teams come over and challenge for wins. You might as well imo. Then you can have Rebellion, DragonSpeed etc. try the NAEC races. Lmp2 cars hardly ever feature in these races. You only see them if they're holding up the leaders. All this work to slow them down and they're still way faster. Imagine if they just said "ok, you can run a little bit more free" they'd be going 2, 3 seconds faster per lap easily. They'd probably run that fast if they didn't bop them down from what they're originally at. I think it's a no-brainer. Lmp2 guys get their own class and their own wins, no reason to play second fiddle and pray for a miracle win or podium.
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Old 9 May 2018, 17:16 (Ref:3821085)   #231
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IMSA have to find a good BoP and dont move it race by race to reach some credibility, that's the biggest point IMO.
I think that's impossible. Once you start with BoP, you go all the way down the rabbit hole. There is no middle ground.
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Old 9 May 2018, 19:01 (Ref:3821119)   #232
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If they align DPi with private lmp1, we'll have european teams come over and challenge for wins. You might as well imo. Then you can have Rebellion, DragonSpeed etc. try the NAEC races. Lmp2 cars hardly ever feature in these races. You only see them if they're holding up the leaders. All this work to slow them down and they're still way faster. Imagine if they just said "ok, you can run a little bit more free" they'd be going 2, 3 seconds faster per lap easily. They'd probably run that fast if they didn't bop them down from what they're originally at. I think it's a no-brainer. Lmp2 guys get their own class and their own wins, no reason to play second fiddle and pray for a miracle win or podium.
I don't agree. As soon as DPi gets free from the BoP, they will enter in the old same cycle of rising cost. DPi cars will never be P1 for the current cost.

P2 teams will get upset after seeing themself again in a class like PC was and will leave, or worse, try to race with the P3 cars in another serie.
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Old 11 May 2018, 17:54 (Ref:3821545)   #233
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GTD was as close to GTLM as ever at Mid Ohio. Wait until they get the Michelin tires in 2019. Personally its ok. To see a huge speed gap with the GT classes is not that big of a deal. GTLM will always end up on top anyway. Maybe IMSA's BoP on GTLM is a little harsh right now. Look at GTE Pro at Spa, those cars are sub 2 min 12 now. That is close to old LMP2 lap times there. They are probably capable of doing better than 1 min 16 at Mid Ohio.
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Old 12 May 2018, 04:56 (Ref:3821607)   #234
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They're either going to bop the p2 machines or separate them from the DPis.

I have say thought that the p2 cars are really good now, it just they have amatures and the DPis dont. So bop isn't going to fix the problem.

But if they do separate them, what about adding privateer P1 cars? Might be easier to bop those cars against the DPi.
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Old 12 May 2018, 14:53 (Ref:3821711)   #235
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It's already hard enough to BoP the DPi cars with each other, let alone add yet another class into the mix...
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Old 15 May 2018, 03:09 (Ref:3822498)   #236
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Interesting column by Jordan Bianchi for Racer on the possibility of NASCAR being sold. The key point:

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Although on the surface the evidence suggests it is a less than ideal time to sell NASCAR due to the score of problems it is facing, a deeper examination indicates otherwise. An upcoming succession of monumental hurdles provides a potential buyer an enticing proposition where they have the opportunity to shape the sport as they best see fit.

In 2020, the Cup Series will need an entitlement sponsor to replace Monster Energy. That same year, NASCAR’s sanctioning agreement with its 23 tracks, and the charter agreement with its teams, also expire. And roughly around this time, NASCAR will have to open negotiations with Fox Sports and NBC Sports about its current television contracts that run through the 2024 season.
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Were a buyer to determine that the bloated 36-race Cup Series schedule needs trimming and a long overdue realignment of some dates – less races on intermediate speedways, a greater number of road courses and short tracks –- in order to cater to and re-engage disenfranchised fans, it would essentially have a blank slate upon which to do so.
If a new owner sees more road courses as part of the solution, then retaining IMSA makes a lot of sense. If a new owner doesn't think road courses are part of the solution, then IMSA probably gets sold off/not retained.
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Old 15 May 2018, 09:33 (Ref:3822554)   #237
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If a new owner sees more road courses as part of the solution, then retaining IMSA makes a lot of sense. If a new owner doesn't think road courses are part of the solution, then IMSA probably gets sold off/not retained.
I don't think more than one or two more road courses are an ideal direction for NASCAR's future, but maintaining relations with such courses would be wise, so considering that I think the only real determining factor in whether or not to keep IMSA is if the new buyers think it can be profitable.
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Old 15 May 2018, 16:14 (Ref:3822625)   #238
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Interesting column by Jordan Bianchi for Racer on the possibility of NASCAR being sold. The key point:



And:



If a new owner sees more road courses as part of the solution, then retaining IMSA makes a lot of sense. If a new owner doesn't think road courses are part of the solution, then IMSA probably gets sold off/not retained.
I don't think it has to mean that. Having your hand in different disciplines of kotorsport if you're looking to buy NASCAR seems like a good idea. More road courses for NASCAR could open up joint weekends with imsa.... For better or worse.... Good exposure, but I'd be leery of the bop magically favoring the caddilac in prototype and the corvette and ford in gt for that week. Ya know, gotta beat them furrin cars.... But if they avoided that trap, it could be beneficial.
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Old 23 May 2018, 15:55 (Ref:3824232)   #239
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The latest on the future of Belle Isle Indycar/IMSA race weekend: No decision has been made yet. From the Detroit Free Press:

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While officials on Tuesday shared good news that Belle Isle remains the most-attended state park in Michigan, a cloud of uncertainty hangs over the future of the Chevrolet Detroit Grand Prix being held on the island.

The race has been the subject of recent protests by residents upset about the environmental impact on Belle Isle as well as the numerous disruptions to the park in the weeks surrounding the race. This is the last year of the current contract for the race, which runs June 1-3.

Council President Brenda Jones noted that she has continued to receive concerns from residents. Jones read a letter from a resident who wrote, "I am hoping we do not renew the Grand Prix. ... These are people I suspect never go to Belle Isle aside from the Grand Prix."
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Old 23 May 2018, 18:27 (Ref:3824273)   #240
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Here's a more detailed story on the future of the Belle Isle race from the Detroit News. The key points:
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The future of the Detroit Grand Prix remains up in the air as an existing agreement to host it on Belle Isle is set to run out this year and organizers discuss whether to drive ahead.

State Department of Natural Resources officials told Detroit City Council on Tuesday during an annual briefing on the island's progress that an existing five-year agreement to host the race was honored by the state when the DNR assumed management of the island as a state park Feb. 10, 2014, under a 30-year lease agreement with the city.

"So far, we have not received a request for going forward in the future," said Ron Olson, parks chief for the state DNR. "Right now, we're just taking care of this year, and we'll have to see when and if we get a proposal and then evaluate it."
And:

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[Grand Prix Chairman Bud] Denker said officials expect to make a determination by June or July. When asked if fans should be worried about the fate of the racing event, Denker said: "We don't know yet. We're debating it."
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Old 23 May 2018, 19:06 (Ref:3824280)   #241
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Well, the track is going to be on iRacing soon which definitely means it will be discontinued
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Old 1 Jun 2018, 14:42 (Ref:3826039)   #242
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I would love to see Detroit swapped out for Indy
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Old 15 Jun 2018, 16:15 (Ref:3829696)   #243
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Do you think as soon as 2019, that IMSA could split DPI and LMP2 into different classes. But also at the same time invite non Hybrid LMP1 to complete in the DPI class. With some BoP of course. Which I think is quite doable. The speed gap between the Oreca R13 and BR1 Dallara vs the DPI cars on Michelin tires with much less BoP restrictions probably is not much. I think the P1s would need to be "BoP'd" down just a tad.
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Old 15 Jun 2018, 16:20 (Ref:3829698)   #244
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I would love to see Detroit swapped out for Indy
I think the issue is less of the track than it is the date. GTLM not being the race clearly reduces interest. Obviously GTLM can't run at all from about mid May through all of June.

Still I would disagree with Dyson Mazda's comment for this reason: You can argue that keeping Detorit is good because it is a low profile event that you can get in to bridge the layoff for DPI and GTD. So I think it has its place and has been accepted as the race on the bottom of the totem pole so to speak on the schedule.
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Old 15 Jun 2018, 16:24 (Ref:3829700)   #245
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Do you think as soon as 2019, that IMSA could split DPI and LMP2 into different classes. But also at the same time invite non Hybrid LMP1 to complete in the DPI class. With some BoP of course. Which I think is quite doable. The speed gap between the Oreca R13 and BR1 Dallara vs the DPI cars on Michelin tires with much less BoP restrictions probably is not much. I think the P1s would need to be "BoP'd" down just a tad.
I don't see what this achieves. I keep seeing suggestions of unlinking DPi and LMP2 in IMSA, but why?

But let's say for sake of discussion they do it. DPi is currently slowed down to LMP2 speed. So right now it's realistic to say that over a long lap (Spa), they'd be around 6 seconds off of the non-hybrid cars. So the gap needs to come down by 6 seconds. So you'd release the BoP on the DPis cars and you'd throttle back the LMP1 non-hybrids. So now you've got them equal.

Except do you? The Caddy will cope with it. The Acura will probably cope with it. The Nissan is all over the place with speed. The Mazda wouldn't manage a qualifying lap before blowing up most of the paddock. So what has really been achieved there? Making it more expensive and harder to run in DPi?

There aren't many LMP1 non-hybrids right now, so would any of them really choose to run in IMSA? They can all do that right now with an LMP2, which is cheaper. So why would they run the LMP1 over there?

The end result is DPi being BoP'd to LMP cars again, but faster and more expensive. I don't really see the gain, and I don't see many LMP1 cars coming over to make it worthwhile.

IMSA is fine as it is. Don't break it, especially if it's just to get an LMP1 car back in the series.
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Old 15 Jun 2018, 16:43 (Ref:3829703)   #246
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I'm in favor of splitting the classes because of one major reason: IMSA allows development of DPI cars, while LMP2s are locked in ACO spec. That could've been avoided if IMSA locked all cars down in homolgation, but they didn't and that's mostly why we have the mess we have now with LMP2s not being competitive with DPIs, even when driven by full on pro drivers.
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Old 15 Jun 2018, 17:45 (Ref:3829718)   #247
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The current 3 classes are enough.
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Old 16 Jun 2018, 00:58 (Ref:3829805)   #248
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Do you think as soon as 2019, that IMSA could split DPI and LMP2 into different classes. But also at the same time invite non Hybrid LMP1 to complete in the DPI class. With some BoP of course. Which I think is quite doable. The speed gap between the Oreca R13 and BR1 Dallara vs the DPI cars on Michelin tires with much less BoP restrictions probably is not much. I think the P1s would need to be "BoP'd" down just a tad.
What's the point of this? Given the schedule realities — the WEC bow has its own race at Sebring, PLM falls when the WEC is in Asia, Watkins Glen comes two weeks after Le Mans — this would really be just a bid to attract some P1s to Daytona. And even then maybe only for 2019 and 2020, as the ACO/WEC haven't yet decided whether current generation non-hybrid LMP1s will be eligible for the 2020-21 season. And it's far from a given that any would show up.

Daytona is its own beast, making a workable BOP very difficult to achieve, particularly given the limited data IMSA would have on LMP1 privateers. There's a chance they could get it wrong, generating lots of bad publicity for the series.
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Old 16 Jun 2018, 02:31 (Ref:3829814)   #249
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I've thought a lot about this (because I'm a giant geek) and I think I would be against splitting the class because:

- The separation of the class is not a large as you might think. While we only have street courses to compare atm, check out the Indycar quali and race lap times to DPi. I think you might be surprised. I was.
- Credit must be given to the top teams. It might take a year, but Joest is going to get those Mazdas up front, I'm sure of it. In their first race in nearly a decade, Penske put their beautiful Oreca on pole at PLM just 8 months ago, if anyone needs a reminder of how good they are.
- Given what we know about the new ACO prototype regs, it would appear N. America is going to be on its own for a while and their doesn't seem to be much crossover in P2... why don't we allow the "global" P2 cars some upgrades? The main proponent for development is Penske because they want to use their dampers. I bet JDC would like to run a set too.
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Old 18 Jun 2018, 11:54 (Ref:3831613)   #250
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The question is “Why split the classes?”

Is it to give P2s a chance for an overall win? The differences are not just down to BoP, but also professionalism.

As for BoP, IMSA controls that. If they want a completely level playing field they can work hard for that—but it isn’t easy, as the last few years have proved.

How can they know which team nails the set-up for any given track? Should cars be balanced track-by-track? But mightn’t some cars do better at some tracks?

Even among the P2s there is a range of performance—and not huge consistency.

If the hope is to attract Euro teams—why?

One thing IMSA seems to have learned is that it needs to design its series to its own needs—FIA/ACO is quite happy to kneecap the North American series to make its headline Euro race and series work to its own imagined best plan.

I’d love to see some of the P1 privateers head over, but IMSA cannot design its rules based on the hope that some teams which probably don’t see much RoI in crossing the Atlantic anyway, will spend huge dollars to ither travel or to set up another branch of the team.

For SMP or Rebellion to fly back and forth across the world is really expensive—it is the bigget complaint teams have about WEC, I think,.

Add to that more trips to compete in North American races … where does the money come from, where does the time come from?

And Why? Winning Sebring or Daytona might mean something, but what is the value to a Euro team of winning at some track Euro fans have barely heard of? Or risking the car at Long Beach, for instance?

On the other hand, if IMSA changes the rules to make the series more attractive to Euro teams, and they don’t come … what would the fallout be at home?

Why risk it? What would be the big upside? More TV viewers? I don’t see that—are Russian fans going to buy U.S. TV subscriptions to watch SMP at some obscure race at an off-hours time-slot? They’d likely watch the race—recorded—on YouTube rather than stay up until 3 a.m. to watch live.

And particularly, how many would not tune in a second or third time if Cadillac won anyway—they’d start blaming bad BoP and stop watching. 

So … Why woud IMA want to split the prototype class? What would be the upsides? Who would benefit, and how would the series benefit?

If there are some solid answers to those questions, the discussion could advance. Otherwise …..
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