Gordon Kirby, The Way it is. The ALMS searches for a new direction

[Fogelhund]

As everyone knows, the loss in recent years of factory or factory-backed P1 and P2 teams from Audi, Porsche and Acura has left the ALMS with a thin field of prototypes so that the ALMS is looking for the right way forward for the future. ALMS vice-president of technical operations Scot Elkins commented at Lime Rock on the state of the organization's debate.

"In principal everything that we do is the same as [Le Mans organizers] the ACO," Elkins observed. "In reality, our market and our race series are very different. So we're in the process of analyzing what our situation is based on the current cars we have and potential cars we're going to have, and we're going to try to see what approach to take.


"It's no secret that our prototype field hasn't been as large as we want it to be. There was a large prototype field in Europe in the LMS up until Portugal where all of a sudden they started to feel our pain. So we're in conversations with the ACO in trying to figure out what the right thing is. They've put the regulations out for next year as permanent, but there's an awful lot of discussion as to is it the right thing? Is it the right thing for now and for the economy as it is?

"So unfortunately, we're in a little bit of flux," Elkins added.

Much more at link.

http://www.gordonkirby.com/categorie..._is_no246.html

[HORNDAWG]

Good stuff, as always, from Kirby! Thanks.





L.P.

[cmk]

Thanks for posting that Fogelhund. Kirby's pieces are always great but I'm not in the habit of checking his site.

[Speed-King]

Two Highcroft cars with factory support? Why would the rest of the prototype grid even bother to show up?

[joeb]

It is pretty amazing that Dayton was the first team owner to present a business plan for his team to the ALMS.
Maybe he should teach a class that other team owners can sign up for

[cmk]

Duncan loves to harp on about that point, but he is very correct in saying that having a business plan for the series is crucial, partly because it makes the business plans entrants should have feasible. His acumen in that respect makes me forgive him for sometimes running his mouth (like last week!).

[extramundane]

Originally Posted by joeb

It is pretty amazing that Dayton was the first team owner to present a business plan for his team to the ALMS.
Maybe he should teach a class that other team owners can sign up for

Maybe he should teach a class that series owners can sign up for.

[JAG]

Lots of fine words but I do think this rules stability argument is a bit of a red herring.

Take Dyson for example, they ran the MG Lola AER for years and reached a stage were they could challenge Joest and Champion Audi.

They switched to the presumably very expensive RS Spyders and never got the best out of the cars before returning to Lola and AER.

Looking to 2011 and beyond Dyson could quite conceivably be running a version of the AER and Lola chassis for a decade.

Nothing would be better for the series than for Dyson to join Highcroft and commit two P1 cars for the 2011 season. Put on a united front and start planning for 2011 now. I'd also bump the LMPC's upto P2 and you'd have a great base to build upon.

Please don't run a combined LMP class as it disincentivizes the likes of Highcroft and potential new entrants from investing in new P1 cars.

It also makes it very difficult for entrants to embrace the new cost effective P2 regs if you are expecting them to compete for overall wins rather than letting them get their own thing going with the current LMPC cars.

[dj4monie]

Originally Posted by JAG

Lots of fine words but I do think this rules stability argument is a bit of a red herring.

Take Dyson for example, they ran the MG Lola AER for years and reached a stage were they could challenge Joest and Champion Audi.

They switched to the presumably very expensive RS Spyders and never got the best out of the cars before returning to Lola and AER.

Looking to 2011 and beyond Dyson could quite conceivably be running a version of the AER and Lola chassis for a decade.

Nothing would be better for the series than for Dyson to join Highcroft and commit two P1 cars for the 2011 season. Put on a united front and start planning for 2011 now. I'd also bump the LMPC's upto P2 and you'd have a great base to build upon.

Please don't run a combined LMP class as it disincentivizes the likes of Highcroft and potential new entrants from investing in new P1 cars.

It also makes it very difficult for entrants to embrace the new cost effective P2 regs if you are expecting them to compete for overall wins rather than letting them get their own thing going with the current LMPC cars.

Dyson drifted far away from the recommended setup for the Spyders. Those cars were highly complicated and they had to "Dyson-ize" it and it didn't quite work.

Go back over some of the 2007 and 2008 races, Calvin Fish mentioned this several times.

As for full prepared teams, none is more fully prepared than Duncan's operation. CMK what did he say last weekend? I don't think I caught it. If your talking about his view of what happen between David and Klaus, I dunno, I let it go over my head.

Atherton laughed at Ducan with his "business plan" because the likes of "Solo Al", Ex-NFL Quarterbacks, The Fields and Autocon. The last two who treat it as a "weekend out" with our expensive toys.

[porman]

Great! They should have been thinking this way two years ago.

[chernaudi]

Dyson drifted far away from the recommended setup for the Spyders. Those cars were highly complicated and they had to "Dyson-ize" it and it didn't quite work.

Go back over some of the 2007 and 2008 races, Calvin Fish mentioned this several times.

Cytosport developed their own setup and it worked quite well at Lime Rock. And with Penske being the "factory team", does one really think that a private team with the same car will get the exact same equipment? I don't think so, and that's in the Porsche tradition.

Back on topic, IMSA did the rules stabiltiy deal from '04-'06 with some performance balancing in '06. I doubt that this will get the ACO to throw out their proposed 2011 rules package, besides, they're already proposing rules for 2014/15 and don't even have the offical 2011 rules published yet!

Sometimes, I think that IMSA's talking to a wall with the ACO, who seem to forget that rules developed for a single 24 hour race don't always work for a multi-race sprint race series, and maybe the issues with the LMS might be convincing them of that fact.

[Jonerz]

Originally Posted by porman

Great! They should have been thinking this way two years ago.

Spot on. At least they're thinking about it now though, there is plenty of potential in sporty-car racin' and particularly the ALMS. Hopefully 2009, 2010, and (2011?) will be a blip on the radar in terms of (thin) prototype fields and the ALMS can grow, live long and prosper if that's not too corny.

Chris

[dj4monie]

Originally Posted by chernaudi

Cytosport developed their own setup and it worked quite well at Lime Rock. And with Penske being the "factory team", does one really think that a private team with the same car will get the exact same equipment? I don't think so, and that's in the Porsche tradition.

Bang On! For any doubters see Le Mans 1997 when Porsche showed up with an evolution of the 911-GT1 while all the customers had last year's car.

Originally Posted by chernaudi

Back on topic, IMSA did the rules stabiltiy deal from '04-'06 with some performance balancing in '06. I doubt that this will get the ACO to throw out their proposed 2011 rules package, besides, they're already proposing rules for 2014/15 and don't even have the offical 2011 rules published yet!

Sometimes, I think that IMSA's talking to a wall with the ACO, who seem to forget that rules developed for a single 24 hour race don't always work for a multi-race sprint race series, and maybe the issues with the LMS might be convincing them of that fact.

I agree, but that's why the ALMS went their own direction with combining the classes, myself, Purist, CMK and TWK all agree it should have been done 2 years previously.

[chernaudi]

It essentally happened in all but name in '07-08.

[Tim Northcutt]

Originally Posted by cmk

Duncan loves to harp on about that point, but he is very correct in saying that having a business plan for the series is crucial, partly because it makes the business plans entrants should have feasible. His acumen in that respect makes me forgive him for sometimes running his mouth (like last week!).

I agree that this is smart...good teams in any series have business plans that they share with potential sponsors to show why they will run up front and how they will succeed.

It is why Andretti Austosport's "Business Plan" in the IRl will always include four cars...more data to make all of their cars better, varied race strategies to provide added opportunities for wins, the high profiles of their drivers who will represent the sponsor well, just to name a few...

Once the potential sponsor feels the team is a "winner," that is when the whole maximization of activation of that sponsorship via their partnership comes into play. Four cars in the IRL isn't cheap, but they do it...every year...

I find it ironic that Scott Atherton would actually "Laugh" at such a notion...no wonder the ALMS is having numerous issues with entries, big sponsors, etc...

Their arrogance has to be turning people off...

BTW, Scott...Who brough Patron to ALMS???

Highcroft...the guys with a "Business Plan"

But of course, ALMS does have an "Official Cheese" for the series...make that "Cheese Product," since that partner actually provides Cheese Curd, which is not considered "real" cheese in places like, as an example, Wisconsin.

[fiend540]

Stop harping on my NY made cheese please, it may not be "real" but their buffalo wing cheese is soooo good!

[HORNDAWG]

Originally Posted by fiend540

Stop harping on my NY made cheese please, it may not be "real" but their buffalo wing cheese is soooo good!

Oh, I am pretty sure it is not your NY cheese that is being harped on. But the non Indiana based racing series that is.






L.P.

[Tim Northcutt]

Originally Posted by HORNDAWG

Oh, I am pretty sure it is not your NY cheese that is being harped on. But the non Indiana based racing series that is.






L.P.

Specifically, the arrogance at the top tiers of the "non-Indiana-based series" by "laughing" at the presentation of a "Business Plan" (which is a smart thing to do, especially if you want to use it as a case for support with sponsors) from a team owner when this same series has been bouncing around like a pinball in a machine for years...with no readily apparent "Business Plan" that is focused on long-term growth.

I couldn't care less about "Cheese Curds"...I care about sportscar racing in North America and where this same series is going in the future.

[TWK]

Originally Posted by joeb

It is pretty amazing that Dayton was the first team owner to present a business plan for his team to the ALMS.
Maybe he should teach a class that other team owners can sign up for

You don't really believe that Penske, Dyson, AJR, Rahal Letterman, Andretti Green and the rest go racing without a business plan, do you?

[HORNDAWG]

Originally Posted by Tim Northcutt

Specifically, the arrogance at the top tiers of the "non-Indiana-based series" by "laughing" at the presentation of a "Business Plan" (which is a smart thing to do, especially if you want to use it as a case for support with sponsors) from a team owner when this same series has been bouncing around like a pinball in a machine for years...with no readily apparent "Business Plan" that is focused on long-term growth.

I couldn't care less about "Cheese Curds"...I care about sportscar racing in North America and where this same series is going in the future.

Arrogance? And in what way was the humor (laughing) given? Do you know? Or is it just asumptive that it was sardonic in nature? Assumptions can be a bit_h.



L.P.

[joeb]

Originally Posted by TWK

You don't really believe that Penske, Dyson, AJR, Rahal Letterman, Andretti Green and the rest go racing without a business plan, do you?

I was just commenting on the article. I assume the others have plans, but I guess they never shared theirs with the series like duncon did

[JAG]

It seems to be in vogue to proclaim the ALMS broken and suggest all sorts of radical changes.

As I see it the problems were apparent at the hight of the Audi, Porsche and Acura battles with the lack of LMP privateers.

That's in the past though so it's no use going over old ground.

Right now what the series needs is to make some pro-active decisions rather trying to patch things over.

The GT only idea is admirable and bold but you would be jumping onto the GT bandwagon when it's red hot and due to implode (if not managed very carefully).

As I have said Highcroft are showing faith in the series with intentions to run two P1's. Dyson are also commited and every effort possible should be made to help them get two cars on the grid for 2011.

P2 is poised to boom like GT2 has so the series should be in on this from the start rather than using such cars as a bandaid for the failings of the P1 class.

Ensure LMPC's are competitive in P2 and encourage them to upgrade to full P2 spec if possible. With Lola, ORECA etc. are buidling cost-capped P2's let's hope some of these also show up.

It goes without saying GTE will be great and GTC could have added interest if Audi come onbaord, that's if they don't build a GTE version.

When you cap the season with the ILMC counting Sebring and PLM which quite possibly will have the highest quality grids seen in North America for a decade, you have the makings of a great series.

All it takes is some forethought, balls and a little luck.

There'll always be an appetite for top class sportscar racing so don't fear the series crashing and burning. Can-Am, IMSA GTP, ALMS..............there'll be something to replace it if the worst happens.

[dj4monie]

Originally Posted by JAG

It seems to be in vogue to proclaim the ALMS broken and suggest all sorts of radical changes.

As I see it the problems were apparent at the hight of the Audi, Porsche and Acura battles with the lack of LMP privateers.

That's in the past though so it's no use going over old ground.

Right now what the series needs is to make some pro-active decisions rather trying to patch things over.

The GT only idea is admirable and bold but you would be jumping onto the GT bandwagon when it's red hot and due to implode (if not managed very carefully).

As I have said Highcroft are showing faith in the series with intentions to run two P1's. Dyson are also commited and every effort possible should be made to help them get two cars on the grid for 2011.

P2 is poised to boom like GT2 has so the series should be in on this from the start rather than using such cars as a bandaid for the failings of the P1 class.

Ensure LMPC's are competitive in P2 and encourage them to upgrade to full P2 spec if possible. With Lola, ORECA etc. are buidling cost-capped P2's let's hope some of these also show up.

It goes without saying GTE will be great and GTC could have added interest if Audi come onbaord, that's if they don't build a GTE version.

When you cap the season with the ILMC counting Sebring and PLM which quite possibly will have the highest quality grids seen in North America for a decade, you have the makings of a great series.

All it takes is some forethought, balls and a little luck.

There'll always be an appetite for top class sportscar racing so don't fear the series crashing and burning. Can-Am, IMSA GTP, ALMS..............there'll be something to replace it if the worst happens.

There will be no need to replace it if the correct moves are made. Grand Am Cup in some form or another has survived the last 3 recessions, an S&L scandal, Dot.com Boom/Bust and Wall St. bringing down the US/World Economy (all connected mind you).

Constant 40-50 car grids, so they must be doing something right.

Re-hashing history is important because if you don't learn from your mistakes, how you going to prevent from making the same mistakes again?

The time to consolidate classes was at the end of 2007, the time to dump GT1 was at the end of 2008.

These moves would have soften any blow that could have been caused by the economy crashing. As TWK and Murphy has mentioned before attendance was PEAKING in 2008 as TV viewer ship went down compared to the year before (2007). With the second year of a weaken LMP class, the rumors of loosing venues and teams complaining of not getting ROI, the bleeding needs to be stopped.

Nobody said the ALMS was on life support, but one more incorrect move could send the whole series down the tubes.

You (and Speed King) keep speaking about the impending doom of GT2, won't that become a self-for-filling prophecy? As long as concerns over cost are vigilantly kept under control, there is no impending DOOM. There is media pressure as well, its almost at every race that Hindy says "Don't Touch GT2" and that's pretty much echoed around the internet.

Seems the ACO wants to fiddle around the edges and GT-E whatever will largely remain the same. Introducing GT-Pro Am or whatever should only be a consideration for Europe. We already started a GTC/GT3 class which could be a Pro-Am or Young Driver Development vehicle as much as reducing cost of competing. GT3 cars while I will agree might cost more than they should, are still cheaper than GT2 cars which are half a million. That seems to be the threshold for most Privateer teams to tolerate and I'm sure that helps teams like Flying Lizard who Porsche gives them Factory drivers "free" of charge as payment (sponsorship).

This is an affordable level the OEM's are comfortable spending at. Minus Dr Mario screaming about the ACO (which I agree with him) I don't see any long range problems for the BMW program.

GT2 is fine.

I am pleased we are getting long term commitments from Dyson and Highcroft and if it ends up those are the only teams that run LMP in the near future, that still high quality. Others will notice this and consider entering, especially if Duncan Dayton can show it can be done with some factory support and some corporate support.

LMP2 will be quite a bit slower than LMP1 going forward mostly because of the fixed cost of the car itself. So the classes themselves will separate anyway and we can go back to class racing.

LMPC will effectively disappear to be replaced with a slightly more expensive LMP2 class with the same cars, different engines, more liberal suspension and brake parts.

Likely no ACS (Traction Control) and no ABS either.

Adding 2-3 more cars to LMP2 would be a positive.

There should be very little to no concern over Intersport and Autocon, if they want to compete, they need to look at their economics and make it work instead of asking the Series to accommodate their outdated equipment.

They should consider consolidating operations, happens in NASCAR and Indy Car, what's preventing it from happening in Sports Cars?

GTC should be opened up, the rich have largely gone untouched by the financial crisis and like the endurance format of the ALMS over Patron GT3 (some are still doing both) so we can step it up a notch and I don't think there will be much crying over it.

What I find disturbing is loosing venues for various reasons, some attendance related (Road America) and some seemingly fees related (Mid-Ohio).

So to say the ALMS is not in trouble is not looking at it correctly.

[JAG]

If GTE becomes the top ALMS class costs will soon reach P1 levels.

In the mid 90's BTCC teams had budgets of £5m-£10m and the likes of Williams running cars.

There's enough to build on with P1 and P2 and keep GTE costs under control with the Pro and Am categories.

Opening up GTC is an option but it would be preferable if Audi built a GTE version of their R8 LMS the same goes for Mercedes' SLS.

[HORNDAWG]

Originally Posted by JAG

If GTE becomes the top ALMS class costs will soon reach P1 levels.

In the mid 90's BTCC teams had budgets of £5m-£10m and the likes of Williams running cars.

There's enough to build on with P1 and P2 and keep GTE costs under control with the Pro and Am categories.

Opening up GTC is an option but it would be preferable if Audi built a GTE version of their R8 LMS the same goes for Mercedes' SLS.

Hmm, talking in circles. So then you disagree with it being a GT only series?



L.P.